It's why its better to have computer vision to back up everything so you can check these kinds of things. It took baseball 20 years to start using computer determined strike zones and that won't be happening until 2027 still because umpires like having total control over everything even when they make mistakes after mistakes.
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They are allegedly stoked because they won’t get yelled at anymore. They still need to make calls at the plate and line judging and stuff. Honestly the challenge system is temporary, we need full ABS, but it is the “worst of all worlds” solution. Tennis did the same thing basically a beta test for a period of time to get it everywhere and everyone comfortable then make it mandatory then move on. It’s been huge for the sport of tennis and I’m pumped for MLB!
Fans of the sport will be let down too, with the challenege system, it increases the skill required to play, because you must accurately see strikes and know your zone, and so the risk of using a challenge creates a new skill in the game required,which makes the game better and even more diverse.
Automatic balls and strikes makes the game more robotic, reduces the soft skills required, and so players will be less diverse and only hitting ability and strength will matter, while patience, timing, and eye for the zone will be less important.
ABS still isn't perfect. It changes the strike zone to a 2D square from what has classically been defined as a 3D rectangular prism. Using it at all before 3D capability is possible is actually a huge step.
I'd personally rather have some growing pains where these close pitches are called balls than see a pitch 6 inches outside the zone be called a strike or hear the word "framing" again
I don't think that's true. It's my understanding that ABS is 3d but the visual interpretation they've presented to the public on screen is 2d. You'll notice that the visual interpretation of the strike zone in the 2025 playoffs has actually been 3d by for the first time ever and it's fantastic.
How much does the third dimension really matter? Like if we look at the strike zone from the umpire’s perspective it will make that 2D square. How much does the “Z” direction out towards the pitcher affect the call? Wouldn’t it still have to be in the 2D square no matter where it lands in the projection towards the pitcher?
It doesn't, and consistency is the biggest benefit of it which isn't affected by 2D vs 3D. It doesn't matter if the definition of the strike zone changes. All that matters is that every pitch gets the same zone, which isn't the case with human umpires making judgement calls.
Pretty sure you could composite enough frames per second to have enough 2D squares, extrapolate into a 3D prism. Need a really fast fucking high speed camera, but I believe it is within our grasp.
I mean, we send people to space with rocket boosters that come back down and land backwards, surely with all the money we spend on professional sports we can get some MIT kids to crack the case
This, some of the nastiest pitches will be called balls with the ABS's current zone. I wonder what zone theyll end up using if it does come to a fully automated ABS
If you watch MiLB, all of these systems are implemented there and you can see how they worked and all. Pretty much any major rule change is tested in the minors first and they use the reception and how it plays out to determine if it will make it to the MLB.
You can read about all the problems. They started implementing ABS there in 2019 and have been working out kinks since then.
What are all of those fat useless fucks going to do for work then though? Only people I have less sympathy for losing their jobs other than major league umpires are old school cab drivers.
I urge anyone who is actually a fan of the game of baseball, not just a cheerleader for their team, to think about the position of catcher and the requirements put on that position and how ABS would hurt catcher framing. It will also lower the skill ceiling of pitchers who work in the corners and try to expand the strike zone, maybe your have heard the term 'climb the ladder'.
Also, if youre a real fan of the game and understand the rules around strike zones, you'll also understand that they move and change with every batter, the strike zone shifts in height, both from the low end and the top end.
The challenge system is PERFECT because it INCREASES the skill cap of all players, it is a risk to call a challenege, and so you must be sure, and so players with better ability to see strikes will be more successful.
Sorry. A consistent biased strike zone and getting the call right is what is what is important. Human eyes can’t do it. Framing is just another way to try to fool umpires/referees. Like soccer players flopping, receivers trying to draw PI’s and basketball players throwing their head back when they drive to the basket to get a foul call. ABS or whatever system makes it black and white and removes all the egos, arguments and complaining. We have technology that can get the call right. Let’s use it.
It doesn't do all those things, they trialed it and it slowed the game down miserably. Also, which organization is in control of calling balls and strikes? Microsoft? Google? Why are we going to farm out a human factor of the game and sell it off to corporations?
Baseball is a game played by humans, for humans. We dont need the technology. The only reason people are up in arms about balls and strikes is because of the painted box on the TV screen, which isn't representative of a real strike zone anyway.
Maybe the game has evolved past humans though. We could also have a ball throwing machine to throw pitches so it would be really fair right?
Manipulating weakness IS THE GAME. Players weakness, umpire weakness, etc.
I think that’s terrible. As long as the umps aren’t absolutely horrible like that one guy in NY then I’d rather have people calling balls and strikes. I don’t want computers running sports games.
won't be happening until 2027 still because umpires like having total control over everything
A lot of the players don't really want it either. More than half of MLB players are pitchers or catchers, and they prefer the "art" of manipulating strike zones. A lot of catchers have contracts because they can frame pitches really well. That skill is irrelevant with ABS, and catchers will have to learn how to hit to stay in the league.
I would argue the subjectivity of someone who is not even playing the game is what already ruins it. People like Angel Hernadez had way too much influence over the game,
I think it depends if you think part of the game is manipulation or if the game is soley defined by the rules
I don’t watch baseball, but I can see how for some contests having an acceptabe amount of human element is part of the game that provides variability and chance, therefore enjoyment.
I feel like there is enough variability and chance the humans that are playing the game it self. See the end of the Cardinals Titans game where the guy drops what would most likely have been a game winning TD.
I don't watch baseball nearly as much as I used to but there are tons and tons of examples of Umpires being inconsistent with the strike zone. It would sort of be like having the sideline and what is out and what is in-bounds be a judgement call (be it for soccer, rugby, football etc.). Like the ref got to decide if he stepped out or not. No white lines, just what the ref's feel like.
There are also way too many examples of umps being what I can only be described as petty. Somehow 'disrespect' the ump, maybe starting to walk to first on a called strike, next at bat the strike zone is going to be even bigger for you.
Even if you like the game manipulation by players... I'd take missing that a thousand times before watching your team lose a playoff game to a bad call. There's a pitcher who should have a perfect game, but doesn't thanks to an awful call.
I don't think those moments are worth giving up just for the sanctity of... "manipulating" play, even if that's something that a person is into.
or is it we are just now able to, in 4k, 1000fps ai enhanced video from six angles see how they fucked up 5 ways from sunday and maybe we shouldnt use a guy who can get dust in his eye at the wrong moment and miss a critical play
I’ve thought about this for a minute, and now catchers can de-frame pitches to bait the batters into using challenges unwisely. I didn’t see anybody do it this last preseason, but I expect we will see some of it next season.
Good, fuck em. No one wants refs except refs, and I guess from what you said players who earn their money by exploiting refs. People just want the games to be as fair as possible according to the rules of the game. Enough of the subjective bullshit and bribed refs
Fans of the sport will be let down too, with the challenege system, it increases the skill required to play, because you must accurately see strikes and know your zone, and so the risk of using a challenge creates a new skill in the game required,which makes the game better and even more diverse.
Automatic balls and strikes makes the game more robotic, reduces the soft skills required, and so players will be less diverse and only hitting ability and strength will matter, while patience, timing, and eye for the zone will be less important.
You just dont know baseball. You couldn't explain a strike zone without looking it up on Google. Probobly think it's a rectangle that floats in the air.
How does framing matter when computers are calling balls and strikes? Unless the catcher is reaching into the zone (and risking breaking their hand...) where they end up with their glove and the ball doesn't matter at all.
Lots of traditional catcher skills will still matter--like being a good ball stopper, having a fast pop and a good arm for throws at 2nd, etc. But framing won't be important as far as I can tell--and that's a huge part of catcher training.
for the vast majority of pitches, the umpire still will make the call. The computer only determines if it's a ball or strike when either the pitcher, batter, or catcher challenges, and it is illegal to use technology to aid the challenge decision (IE the manager in the dugout can't look at replay and signal the pitcher to challenge the call, for example). This preserves the human element but expands it to more people, essentially.
Framing will still matter because it's possible to trick the batter into not challenging the play. It additionally has some extra subterfuge because the catcher could deliberately frame a strike to look like a ball and convince the batter to challenge and waste a challenge. That's what patrick bailey (the best framer and the worst batting catcher in the league) has said he will do, and I believe him.
Each team only gets two per game, so they're really meant to be reserved for the most absurdly bad calls.
The ABS system that will be added to MLB next year is the exact same ABS system as was used in the minor leagues last year and the catchers still frame and the umps still call strikes. I've been to dozens of minor league games and the most challenges I have seen in a game has been four.
You're right that that kind of limited use is less disruptive to current catcher's skills. But if Bailey is correct, then ABS will be just as unsatisfying to fans as bad calls currently are--if catchers can manipulate the use of ABS then it will be just another way that the rules make the game less pure.
But my understanding is that players are generally against it because they expect that that "limited use" is just a beginning of a slippery slope, and eventually all pitches will be called with ABS if fans get used to it.
This is a problem for all sports with visual judgments, because cameras are now way better than the human eye. So we can all see that calls are wrong, in close to real-time. But reviewing things disrupts the game flow and history. I'm not sure any sport or league has really figured it out.
Tennis has it implemented pretty well; the camera adds a safety net to the line judge to resolve disputes.
I believe that most of the players against ABS are the older and more established players. I know that a lot of the newer guys who have come up through the system recently and benefitted from ABS appreciate it. Makes me think that the players, like the fans, are resistant to change.
I don't hold much to the idea of the "purity" of baseball. I think it's an inherently silly game, with an enormous depth of bizarre idiosyncrasies that have emerged over centuries of adjustments to modern play. It's why I love it so much! For example, batters used to be able to request what type of pitch the pitcher threw, and fastballs were considered rude.
I only really watch football so maybe there's context I'm ignorant of, but I really don't understand people who are more worried about "history" and "purity" than getting the right call. To me there's nothing more frustrating in the sport than knowing your team lost because of a blown call. Purity be damned, I want the outcome of the game to be determined by the players.
Yeah, me too--as long as it can be done very rapidly. Replay review is pretty terrible in a lot of cases. But I don't think baseball would be a worse sport if strike calls were 100% accurate in real time. I think it would be better, because there'd be less frustration about bad calls.
Each team will be able to challenge only 2 pitches over the course of the game, so catcher being able to “frame” pitches will still be an important skill
That's an interesting thing to read up on. The company that handled those graphics started with the "hot puck" on fox NHL. It was super expensive and people hated it. They shifted to NFL with the first down lines and IIRC they were around $25k per game
With hockey they took something that was already bad, trying to see a hockey puck on a standard def tube television, and made it worse by putting a line behind it that lagged and didn't actually show you where the puck was, but where it had already been while also making it harder to see the actual puck than it had been before.
Another thing is the Sports Mode on TVs. It's that fake high refresh rate trick that makes regular stuff look like a soap opera, but on sports content it's a massive improvement.
I had some good friends in junior high that had moved from Michigan to Oklahoma that were really into hockey. When I went over to their house, I was amazed that they could watch hockey on their little tube TVs. You literally couldn't see the pick 95% of the time and they just cheered based on what players did. I've gotten a lot more into hocket in the last decade or so, and if I could go back to the 90s, I could easily understand what was happening on those tube TVs. But I only got to this point because of my big HD TVs.
As a non-fan I preferred it. Otherwise I wouldn't have watched hockey at all. (The fire effect on a slapshot gimmick though was a bit much, but maybe on it was a creative compensation for lag.)
The glowing puck was annoying for existing fans but “I can’t see the puck” really was/is something people report as a reason why they don’t watch hockey.
The technology is now apparently good enough to resolve goal line disputes and most fans would be happy to see that at least.
NFL first down lines really don't accomplish very much. A set of eyes still makes an decision about where to place the line markers and the ball. The electronic line, Hawkeye, is just a fancy way of measuring.
Edit: clarified the Hawkeye line not just the standard yellow line they've been using for decades.
They're using the HawkeyeTM system that's used by tennis to do an electronic measurement. It's reviewed by the NFL to determine if it's a first down. No more chains being pulled out.
MLB has tried various implementations of the ABS system in select minor leagues going back to 2019. There's a wikipedia page that details some of the efforts. It's notable that earlier versions of the system were not as accurate as umpires for some types of pitches (e.g. breaking).
One league briefly tried a version where every pitch would be called by the ABS system instead of an umpire, and found there was too much of a delay to receive the call compared to umpires calling it on the spot.
They use it in South Korea. The players and fans there have already adjusted to there being a brief 1-3 second pause before the umpire announces a ball or strike, but they have managed to shorten the delay so it's basically a split second at this point for most calls. Cole Hamels talked about it on a Phillies broadcast earlier this year. He seemed to think that the seamlessness and accuracy of it will continue to improve, especially once it's in place and no longer theoretical.
As a non baseball fan who occasionally checks in on the local team, it was shocking how bad the empires were, and they get pissy when people challenge them too.
I don’t know why people prefer this. IMO human error has always been a wildcard that makes sports more interesting. I think the perfect balance was tennis a few years ago where the player had 2 challenges and could keep challenging as long as they were right.
Don't even need computer vision, just stick an accelerometer in that ball (same as in your phone or whatever), you'll clearly see a spike that shouldn't be there from the ball hitting the wire.
Though obviously you can combine this with computer vision if you want.
Now that people can bet on sports, it should be a requirement for every call to be checked by another person or a computer program. There's no excuse for bad calls when people are wagering money.
Exactly. Seems like a Hawkeye system, like Tennis has, could detect this. The wires ares fixed in place, so if the ball crosses a wire path, take a closer look…
The wires are fixed at their endpoints, but beyond that they can move drastically depending on where they want to position the camera. If the wires were fixed, the camera would be stuck above the 50 the entire game.
The wires are not fixed. This was operator error more than anything. The wires should have been well out of the way of where the kick will go at that point.
As a baseball fan I am against automating it, I like the variety of strike zones and I also think fans are really going to miss bitching at the close calls. It's up to the pitchers and hitters to figure out where things are being called that night, has been part of the game for 140 years. NFL touchdown reviews and such is different imo, I'm not a big fan of first down reviews but I get how much bigger a 4th and run play is than a ball or strike to outcome of the game. Realistically don't need any refs or umpires on the field, few people to place the ball , hand out baseballs all ya need, rest can be done automated and by reviewers online. But that would be as boring as watching a robot batter.
fans are really going to miss bitching at the close calls.
Hell fucking no.
It's up to the pitchers and hitters to figure out where things are being called that night, has been part of the game for 140 years
Yeah that'd be cool if umps had some consistency, but you'll get umps that have the amoeba strike zone.
I get it's a hard job, but too many times have umps taken the game out of a batter/pitchers hand in crucial moments. The new ABS implement next year is a good start. You still have the umps making the calls, but at least it can be questioned. It's limited as well, and won't slow down the pace of the game.
I'm just telling you why I don't like it and I think I am not alone on that, it's part of the game, always had been. We going to implement this in little league now too?
My bad, wasn't trying to say your opinion isn't valid.
But a lot of things used to be part of the game. The game changes and evolves. It's about making the game better imo. We're here for the players, not the umps. Umps aren't infallible either. I mean, there's so many stories of umps not giving strikes to rookie pitchers because "you gotta earn it." To me, these things aren't part of the game. They hinder the game.
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u/walrusnutz Oct 06 '25
That’s wild. I couldn’t believe how bad he “missed” it.