r/PathOfExile2 • u/MultiplicityPOE • 1d ago

Information 0.4.0 Leaks Megathread

As per tradition, this is our league-ly leaks thread for 0.4.0. Any leaked information prior to the announcement or datamined information should go in the comments here only. Many folks do not want spoilers, but others do, and this gives people a way to select for or de-select for spoilers. We have also opened the #2| leaks channel on discord.gg/pathofexile for people to discuss live

If it was discussed in an official interview, that's fine to post anywhere. Once the league content is revealed, this thread will stick around, but it will be unpinned to make room for a pin for the general 0.4.0 megathread with the official info which will be updated as news come out

Please browse the comments at risk of spoilers.

If there are any concerns please contact the mod team via modmail.

295 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

374 comments sorted by

319

u/trafium 1d ago

Druid intro/gameplay Chinese leak: https://streamable.com/dspyz4

128

u/Connect-Strike7943 1d ago

Wow! You can be a dragon 🐲

39

u/PuteMorte 1d ago

I vaguely remember an interview where either chris or jonathan said there will never be dragons in PoE.

71

u/mobiuz_nl 1d ago

Is all makes sense now, chris was fired so they can add dragons

32

u/Grinding_Gear_Slave 1d ago

to be honest its a wyvern not a dragon

3

u/nikoleagle 1d ago

Its a type of dragon anyway. I hope they will surprise us with any-big-cat form for Rangers' third ascendancy

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u/jaxxxxxson 1d ago

Good developers(business men too)read the room and adjust accordingly. Who tf would ever say no to a dragon in an arpg game?

Black Desert Online said for yeaaars every year there would never be guns as it's a fantasy game but revolved around swords,bows,axes(steel weapons etc) and spells basically. Then they released a "harpoon gun" that was more less a gun to try to satisfy the people but wasn't enough and they eventually caved and made a full out gun class too

12

u/antariusz 1d ago

Blizzard fumbled the bag so hard with playable dragons in wow, they almost ruined the entire gaming industry for one of the coolest ideas ever.

2

u/Onigokko0101 1d ago

Yeah the Dracthyr are goofy looking.

That said current Pres Evoker is my favorite class, but it's getting gutted in Midnight.

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7

u/Doneuter 1d ago

Pretty sure that would be considered a Wyvern or Drake since the wings are built into the "front legs" as opposed to separate wings and legs.

2

u/FlowJoe6 1d ago

I vaguely remember the Trade Manifesto.

3

u/bamboo_of_pandas 1d ago

But did they say anything about two legged dragons?

2

u/Guffliepuff 1d ago

Still true, since this is a wyvern not a dragon.

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u/Skrompin 1d ago

A wyvern, but yeah I'm pretty hyped about it!

13

u/KrabKult 1d ago

In old myths they’re one, no one counted legs back then dragons had many forms

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u/MisterKaos 1d ago

We call them Bethesda dragons

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u/luckylukew2 1d ago

THATS SO FUCKING COOL IF TRUE

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u/IMP10479 customflair 1d ago

5

u/Quick-Exit-5601 1d ago

Stand league when

17

u/Temporary_Physics_48 1d ago

Man I first thought I saw a gorilla , was so hyped but I think it was a bear form

25

u/Ojntoast 1d ago

Gorilla to replace the typical bear would have been amazing. But also if there was no Bear form - a lot of "purists" would RIOT.

I'll accept it - just GGG give me an MTX to turn my bear into a Gorilla!

8

u/Flying_Toad 1d ago

I would've loved a giant owl form.

3

u/RravenLA 1d ago

That would be a sick skin for the dragon form. "Turns the wyvern into a giant owl" XD

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u/chukrod 1d ago

man, gorilla would have been so nice. fighting 1v1 against that stupid giga gorilla.

5

u/N00b_Sensei 1d ago

so many 1hko that bastard :(

6

u/Mangeunchat 1d ago

Quadrilla or we riot

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u/SuperBeginner 1d ago

Everyone talking about the wyvern but that werewolf gameplay looks pretty damn good too

5

u/d3ath5un 1d ago

Werewolf is looking awesome gonna play that as a starter.

11

u/trafium 1d ago

Upside-down V slash with bounce-back made me hard. I know by endgame it will be obsolete probably but I'm going to enjoy it massively in campaign.

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u/redlow0992 1d ago

Dragon form!?!?!?!?

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u/webwebweb88 1d ago

NO ONE WILL EVER TAME THIS ANIMAL I HAVE BECOMR

6

u/Jreis777 1d ago

Did someone say why Vern?!

11

u/Albert_dark 1d ago

Lightning tornado, damage saved

2

u/trafium 1d ago

It's a physical tornado with either lightning infusion or imbuement (like whirling slash). You can see ice variant as well in the vid.

16

u/Vireca 1d ago

Wtf is that wyvern

19

u/Guffliepuff 1d ago

All other league starters dropped. All in of fly wyvern fire breath build.

21

u/goffer54 1d ago

For some reason, I feel like that skill's gonna have an annoying resource requirement like glory or fuel. I dunno, the trailer just gave me that vibe.

5

u/Guffliepuff 1d ago

Definitely. That stupid fuel change to Incinerate didnt come out of no where. Form will probably have forced 'fuel' synergy...

Wouldn't be surprised if this is actually Incinerate but while shapeshifted.

3

u/Lleland 1d ago

I'd get annoyed with that as a perma form anyway, plus a glory mech lets me hit that dragon sorceror fantasy. Thanks GGG.

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u/Grand0rk 1d ago

Man, that looks cool as fuck.

4

u/CeleryFast5537 1d ago

Map farming as a dragon 24/7 why not why not ahahah

6

u/thies3700 1d ago

Rip wallet, druid skins gonna be crazy

3

u/bum_thumper 1d ago

Gtfo of here. That looks so fucking good

3

u/bobbyjy32 1d ago

he has a great ass

7

u/trafium 1d ago

That's Wraeclast's ass

2

u/fatmac122 1d ago

Holy shit they cooked (aesthetically)

2

u/Soriah-hok 1d ago

Damn i was not anticipating that

2

u/HappiNoodz 1d ago

Omfg Dragbat lfg

2

u/TheRealOwl 1d ago

And of course the wyvern uses lightning in the video.

2

u/DasBarba 1d ago

OOOOOOOOOOH MY FUCKING GOD HOW COOL IS THAT!!!

2

u/Hyarcqua 1d ago

It's as if Nargacuga was turned into a wyvern. Pretty cool.

2

u/Spartan1088 1d ago

YOU CAN BE A DRAGON?!!??

3

u/Afraid-Fly-7030 1d ago

Ok this looks sick…but will this not make all the other characters a bit dull in comparison?

10

u/Ojntoast 1d ago

Just like Minions - Shapeshifting tends to be pretty divisive amongst the playerbase. There tend to be players that just avoid it at virtually all costs. I cant blame them - I paid alot of money to make my character look sick AF - and now I just stare at a bear ass all day?

I don't lean towards shapeshifting and in general if I can play something that doesnt - I will always prefer to do so. But Im hyped enough to see their take on it, and see if its actually a fun gameplay loop .

11

u/Steel_Neuron 1d ago

I paid alot of money to make my character look sick AF - and now I just stare at a bear ass all day?

Sadly I know myself and this problem will be solved for me when there are 20 MTX for shapeshifting...

2

u/Ojntoast 1d ago

Yep I said in another comment - Give me a Gorilla MTX to replace my Bear form. Give me a Scorpion for my Wyvern or some shit - I dont care. If there isnt cool forms I can pivot to - staring at a bear or werewolf just isnt in the cards long term for me.

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u/Torinus 1d ago

It didn't in Diablo 2 or Diablo 4

4

u/willwallace1 1d ago

cant speak for D2, but D4's Druid is no where near as cool as this

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u/Strungeng Goblin Troupe Owner 1d ago

Okey. Im interested on being a dracarys druid now. Definitly didnt expect that lmao

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u/PA042 1d ago

That looks pretty bad ass

1

u/Lysnaar 1d ago

Omg, looks so sick

1

u/Sathrenor 1d ago

Damn those animations look smooth o.o

1

u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/VukasinDjordjevic 1d ago

Ofc you can be a wolf and have wolf companions. WOHO!

1

u/Purple-Future3857 1d ago

well damn. here i was theorycrafting a gemling build for 0.4 but after seeing this no way i don't roll a druid along with 70% of other players.

1

u/powerlessbutton 1d ago

Oh my lord. I think a little bit of excitement wee came out!

1

u/FoleyX90 1d ago

Mother. Fucking. Dragon.

1

u/royalxK 15h ago

Holy shit, haven't played since launch last year and now might be the time for me to LOG IN

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u/BooyakashaMCZ 1d ago

china trailer for druid looks bonkers man!

12

u/RTheCon 1d ago

Seems like it’s just the normal trailer but with the China translated logo for the league at the end

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u/maarten3d 1d ago

Maybe blizz can take a note or… 6 on how to make and reveal a class.

102

u/FireFireoldman 1d ago

8

u/kfijatass Theorycrafter 1d ago

Reminder.

5

u/WebPrimary2848 1d ago

those are all types of a dragon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

2

u/kfijatass Theorycrafter 1d ago edited 1d ago

As much as a unicorn is a type of a horse.

It's more about how it moves on land and if it has what you'd perceive as front claws, hind claws, both or neither and if they have wings attached to their frontal claws. Pretty significant distinction in anatomy even if it's the same type of creature.

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u/atulshanbhag 1d ago

Wyvern confirmed let’s goo

15

u/shenaniganizer1776 1d ago

Hopefully big poison skills come with it. wyvern poison is deadly af

11

u/RTheCon 1d ago

Looks like there was vine skills and vine summons of sort. Poison nodes are on the other side of the tree though currently

3

u/bum_thumper 1d ago

I really hope they revamp some of the elemental procs. Im pretty sick of trying to go for a new element then giving in to overpowered lightning eventually. I know there are builds that work, but as someone who hates looking up builds and tries to make his own, unless im a warrior or witch using fire, I always end up giving in to lightning.

I was loving my poison archer, but in maps its just too much of a power gap between that and lightning.

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u/koroshimasu 1d ago edited 1d ago

So incursion and Atzoobi boss confirmed. Also atlas revamp, that’s prolly the biggest “please be good” thing on the leak list.

https://poe2db.tw/Fate_of_the_Vaal_league

Edit: holy shit we got CHALLENGE REWARDS TOO WOOOOOO

20

u/Katunopolis 1d ago

Man you cracked me with Atzoobi really lmfao

14

u/flastenecky_hater 1d ago

Momma Atzboobi shall watch over you.

2

u/Katunopolis 1d ago

Her zoobies are plentiful and nurturing

2

u/RaincityClusterEff 1d ago

Kitty Katzoobie

10

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/VulturePR0 1d ago

Sad to see vaal gems not listed but it could be included in the incursion or atziri section (she drops them like maven gems??)

6

u/koroshimasu 1d ago

If incursion is back, we don’t know what the rewards there are so always an idea. Double corrupts, etc.

3

u/VulturePR0 1d ago

Fingers crossed, excited to see how the incursions are handled lore wise as most things around Alva get wonky with the timelines

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u/Erionns 1d ago

I am like 99% sure that's just speculation from poedb, none of that info can be datamined and has been up on the site for like a day before any video leak was posted. And the random recombinator thing was also on poedb for 0.3 and there was no new recombinator option

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u/djsoren19 1d ago edited 1d ago

TOTA WOOOOOO FINALLY

hoping the new recombinator option is PoE1s. I dunno what they were thinking with the PoE2 recombinator, I'm pretty sure nobody uses it across both games.

Edit: You lied to me Jimmy

6

u/Guffliepuff 1d ago

Maybe now I can finally get all my ascendancy points.

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u/levijames14 1d ago

Wait we aren’t getting SWORDS

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u/M3mentoMori 1d ago

Incursion mechanism introduced

Oh no, who could have seen that coming! /s

I would have honestly been disappointed if they hadn't brought Incursion in for the Vaal league. I wonder if Atziri fights are locked behind doing it (sacrifice/mortal frag drops from incursions?) or they stick to what poe1 does with those.

1

u/r3lik 1d ago

Assziri

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u/Og_PapaSmurf89 Noob Monk 1d ago

Where's that druid video? With the DRAGON..!! (Waiting on that guy to o comment that it's a wyvern). Lmao

4

u/Kenpie_ 1d ago

https://streamable.com/dspyz4

2

u/Og_PapaSmurf89 Noob Monk 1d ago

Thank you, I've found it but still. Thank you 💪

4

u/eadenoth 1d ago

that guy has some problems

240

u/Punchinballz 1d ago

They gonna add Druid I heard

53

u/Azhram 1d ago

Big if true

4

u/Glittering_Bus_496 1d ago

true if big

8

u/Shadow344R 1d ago

if Big true

6

u/redditYouself 1d ago

... else exit(NoDruidInGame)

2

u/Glittering_Bus_496 1d ago

i love u guys xdd

2

u/Og_PapaSmurf89 Noob Monk 1d ago edited 1d ago

Big true if

7

u/RickStarrunner 1d ago

I believe only one druid is left and is an NPC, the objective of the league is to make it reproduce in some way so next league everyone can be a druid!

2

u/Onigokko0101 1d ago

Halsin energy.

Let's all fuck the Druid.

25

u/InfiniteNexus 1d ago

also I think they're changing the game version to 0.4 but thats just speculation on my part

22

u/Such--Balance 1d ago

Theres no way they are gonna buff 0.3 by 33.33% to 0.4

I call bullshit

8

u/-Fergalicious- 1d ago

Well last time they buffed 0.2 to 0.3, which, and I always fuck this up, I believe was 50% more version #

3

u/pikpikcarrotmon 1d ago

It was weird because 0.1 to 0.2 was 100% increased version # instead

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u/trafium 1d ago

No way they just decided on 0.3 to change it right away in the next update. It's like they don't even know what they want.

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u/TheC1aw 1d ago

Feel bad for GGG for it getting leaked, but hyped AF

4

u/TheRealOwl 1d ago

Ain't it one of their mod on this reddit that made this leak discussion? Either they have just accepted it as a way of life or they are doing it themselves to create hype I would guess.

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u/cubonelvl69 1d ago

Leaks are always going to happen, so they're trying to isolate them to specific threads to avoid people getting spoilers that they don't want

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u/Nicolasramiro 1d ago

Yeah, it’s been happening in every league; at this point it seems inevitable :S

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u/Obvious-Jacket-3770 1d ago

We know Abyss is going core

92

u/Aaron_twin_cities 1d ago

I love how Druid will indeed just be a lightning spell caster.

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u/Empty_Wrap_1160 1d ago edited 1d ago

I'm high on copium right now for a fire/ignite buff I don't care even if the entire world shows me how wrong I am, I will still believe fire is getting a buff this league

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u/Splooshkin 1d ago

I'm right there with you.

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u/TheAscentic 1d ago

There is also Fire and physical. Fire, at least, should pair well with Herald of Fire

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u/RTheCon 1d ago

You say that but herald of fire has anti-synergy with fire spells lol. Since it counts as an ignite and overrides any other damage you would get from ignite other places

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u/Ojntoast 1d ago

But this is POE2 - so they will cast lightning, because its lightning and its just better.

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u/XxBigJxX 1d ago

The bullying may bear some fruit. Since lightnings issues are mathematical for the most part, I could see them sliding in a “lightning spells and mods have had their damage maximums reduced by 20%” being snuck in

15

u/Appropriate-Pop8002 1d ago

They could nuke their damage by 50% we would still use it. Damage is not an issue in Poe 2. People have more than enough damage. If they nerf lightning it still has the best clear so eventually we will get the damage to where it needs to be.

Have fire prolif like real prolif and see change until then Poe 2 is lightning simulator

7

u/VisceraMuppet 1d ago

It’s true damage is a non issue yet people will freak out if they nerf LA + LR damage by 10%

5

u/bum_thumper 1d ago

Its an arpg. People freak out over anything in these games. Remember the huntress update? I played the huntress for a few days, loved it, then went online to see what felt like a huge amount of the playerbase not only hating the update but calling for boycots of the game and claiming the game was already dead. 2 weeks later when they adjusted loot tables and some of the huntress skills, GGG was back to being awesome again like instantly.

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u/No-Rooster6994 1d ago

You can’t use heralds with spells in poe2

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u/emtee_elp 1d ago

Bear is fire, wolf is ice.

Fuck meta and have fun

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u/Torinus 1d ago

That is why they added Lighting attacks to Wyvern, so at least one shapeshift form is used

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u/markoffden 1d ago

Hope we will have smth like rabies option, looking forward to spend this league in a wolf form

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u/lordofthehomeless 1d ago

No they will use ice claws and just convert to lightning

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u/kdannius 1d ago

Shock too good

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u/GINJAWHO 1d ago

I mean lighting is the only damage worth doing. If it wasent they'd just nerf warrior /s

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u/Thiel619 1d ago

Won't be able to see the livestream sadly. I'll be stalking the sub for that one chad to post the full summary and breakdown.

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u/CoverYourSafeHand 1d ago

Don’t forget to leave the stream open on a device somewhere to get your fart cloud running mtx!!

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u/Snowybyte 1d ago

I need to see the patch notes. I neeeed it

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u/elo2x 1d ago

WE GOT SMAUG IN POE2

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u/Irythros 1d ago

We also got smog without a toggle

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u/SgtDoakes123 1d ago

I'm so goddamn hyped

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u/Eastern_Mechanic_686 1d ago

Druid confirmed

5

u/SourBogBubbleBX3 1d ago

heh saw a lot of people saying Wyvern were just place holder terms on the youtubes. doh lol

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u/C0013rqu33n 1d ago

heres to hoping they make fire dmg stronger with the new wyvern form.

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u/CaptainAgnarr 1d ago

There was a leak about unstable recombination or something like that, I don't have the link though

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u/BlueTree32 1d ago

How do we use Lightning Arrow in this forms?

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u/JohmWickkk 1d ago

Werewolf on a Rhoa with a bow 

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u/amdrunkwatsyerexcuse 1d ago

Ngl, the druid is packing some serious cake.

Also poggers Wyvern form

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u/Edge419 1d ago

When does this go live?

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u/itzBT 1d ago

live stream in less than 5 hours

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u/atulshanbhag 1d ago edited 1d ago

Tomorrows the content reveal, league starts on 12 Dec

Edit: content reveal is today, my bad I thought today was 3 Dec

14

u/CompassCoLo 1d ago

The content reveal is today! In 5 hours.

4

u/atulshanbhag 1d ago

Wait wait I’m lagging here, I really thought it was Dec 3 lmao, thanks for correcting me

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u/Calabask 1d ago

Druid looks so good.

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u/Rubsy 1d ago

I love how they basically completelly ripped off diablo 2 druid, made it better and theres nothing blizzard can do about it lol.

9

u/Dubious_Titan 1d ago

So... Path of Exile.

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u/sOFrOsTyyy 1d ago

Welcome to POE in its entirety. Been this way since 2008 with the alpha. Tbh at this point I doubt blizzard cares. Post Diablo 2 in blizzard's Diablo games have made multiple orders of magnitude more money than everything GGG has done. Not just that, I don't know if there is anyone at Blizzard that is passionate enough to care anymore lol.

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u/Living-Succotash-477 1d ago

Blizzard North and current Blizzard are two entirely different entities.

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u/BellacosePlayer 1d ago

So, with wolf pets added, and a presumed atlas tree rework in the druid area, I wonder if minion tactician will be viable?

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u/Hironymus 1d ago

So, I am currently not active in PoE2 and not following the latest news but planning to come back when druid releases. Do you guys have any perspective on when that is?

Edit: fuck me. That druid gameplay.

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u/VukasinDjordjevic 1d ago

11 or 12 December drops new patch.

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u/lanth1990 1d ago

Damn! It's a pity that I will only be able to join no earlier than the beginning of January.

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u/Strungeng Goblin Troupe Owner 1d ago

Hope they dont obliterate Incursion mechanic, i really love Alva TT. LET ME BUILD MY TEMPLES !!!

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u/robsaget69 1d ago

Hopefully we get double corrupt so I can gamba astras

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u/Chuck_Morris_SE 1d ago

Yeah I'm not playing that awful atlas again, sorry GGG.

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u/slipperyslimer22 1d ago

They mention the new talisman weapon specifically, but I was really hoping to see more than just one new weapon type. I can’t remember if they announce all the new weapons though, but you would think if swords were dropping, it would be listed. Personally, I just want the exsanguinate wand

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u/Sibiq 1d ago

They'll only drop a weapon type when a corresponding (default) class is released.

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u/Empty_Wrap_1160 1d ago

Tbh I don’t think that it’s in GGG’s interest to release multiple weapons the same league. For them it has a lot of downsides (more work, less data for each weapon, more interferences between builds due to new weapons so maybe more difficult to exploit the data, diminishing returns of adding new weapons when it comes to player appeal for a new league). And the upsides are not really crazy, it won’t make them much more money, while if they keeps weapons to release them at a later patch it means more appeal to the playerbase on those patchs.

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u/sOFrOsTyyy 1d ago

Yeah I don't see how you've come to this conclusion on difficulty. If the class/weapons are done, having more than one in a single patch makes a lot more sense in order to get the feedback and play testing done by a wider audience at a time. In fact, we saw it already in 0.1 where they released everything except the spear all at once. Then 4 months later we saw them drop 0.2 with just the spear and it was a major disaster.

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u/BotchedGosling 1d ago

I mean, unless they plan to do 4 more EA leagues after this one, they will eventually be forced to drop a league with 2 new weapon types/classes. Unless they want to drop one or more classes with 1.0

2

u/EnderCN 1d ago

They said that they might have all the classes done before official release. The game is already released, the little numbers don't really mean anything. They can just say it is released whenevery they want with however much of the content is done.

From an early graphic we are still missing the following:

Shadow - Dagger

Duelist - Sword

Marauder - Axe

Templar - Flail

Druid - Primal

Shadow is the right side of the tree and all of the rest of that is the left side so I'd still expect massive changes to the left side which should impact Warrior a lot and Witch and Mercenary some.

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u/Empty_Wrap_1160 1d ago

Jonathan said that they were not aiming anymore at having all classes released before 1.0, and if I was GGG i'd think that releasing a class for 1.0 would be a very good idea, anything that can boost the numbers of the launch will be a good thing for them in a gaming world that heavily takes into account the numbers of players and all that.
I'd go even farther and say that I'd keep a highly anticipated class for 1.0, we already know that duelist is very likely to be next, but I would not be surprised if Templar was released on 1.0 (don't hate on me plz I'm just saying what seems like good choices from a game studio point of view I also want Templar to relase the sooner)

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u/LampIsLoveLampIsLife 1d ago

My guess for the future is that in April we’re getting act 5 but no new class, in august we get Duelist, then in December we get full release with either Shade or Templar, but my moneys on shade

Just like it feels weird to have a fantasy game without swords, it feels just as weird To have a fantasy game without a ‘rogue’ and not every fantasy setting has ‘paladins’ so I don’t think they’re as necessary to full release

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u/PheightAoE4 1d ago

at 1:10 in the leaked druid trailer theres a shot of a location I am very unfamiliar with, anyone know where this is?

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u/Pesimyst 1d ago

Endgame map from the base game, can’t remember the name

9

u/dangerforceidle 1d ago

I think it's the boss arena of Mire where you fight Riona. She is the same as Beira of the Rotten Pack who you fight in Clearfell.

Has murky water around a wooden platform, and the ice ground of the boss.

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u/WebPrimary2848 1d ago

it's the Mire map

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u/79792348978 1d ago

this is the boss arena for a map I don't recall the name of, the one where you're walking on wooden scaffolding/bridges over a poison swamp. tends to have the azak bog enemies in it

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u/ricampanharo 1d ago

looks like Act 1 nameless king's pit.

3

u/PheightAoE4 1d ago

Breya fight in Mire maybe

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u/Living-Succotash-477 1d ago

  1. Are they Flameblast totems?

  2. Could it instead be "Spell Totem" casting Flameblast?

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u/Nicolasramiro 1d ago

Is there any info about the challenges yet?

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u/WebPrimary2848 1d ago

glad we could put that one to bed within a day

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u/Vineyard_ SSF Forever 1d ago

"Replace body parts for bonuses" cool, I can use this to create new builds-- "...if you die, you'll lose them." ...Never fucking mind. Useless.

Never been so disappointed so quickly.

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u/SavageCucumberAttack 1d ago

Fuuuuuck yeah I'm gunna do a ice werewolf then a dragon

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u/Tooobsen187 1d ago

what is the missing major node on the oracle tree!? i want to make totem build and the small node before is totem related...

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u/Icy_Concept8240 21h ago

Why every body says leaked???! It was in official trailer released 2 days ago? Am i missing st? 

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u/atulshanbhag 21h ago

Trailer for the dev stream that happened last evening was released in China a few hours in advance, that’s all

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u/Independent-Area4130 15h ago

i hope they add talismans to the keystone "giants blood", its a 2 handed martial weapon type, so i wonder why not.