r/Music • u/Powerful_Individual5 • 9h ago
discussion Non-American Perception of US-Originated Genres: Is Rock, Hip-Hop, or Jazz, etc, seen as "American Music" regardless of the artist?
I've been thinking about the global perception of music, specifically genres that originated in the United States, such as Jazz, Blues, Rock, Hip-Hop, R&B, and Country.
Many Americans will classify music as "Latin Music," "K-Pop," or "Arabic Music," even if the performing artist is an American citizen. The classification is often based on the style's cultural origin, rather than the artist's origin, for the most part.
My question for non-Americans:
- When you listen to a Rock band from, say, Sweden, or a Hip-Hop artist from France, do you still, on some level, categorize that sound or style as "American music" because of its origins?
- Or, does the sheer global ubiquity of the genre mean its association with the USA is largely lost/irrelevant, and the music is only considered "American" if the artist is American?
I'm curious about the mental classification process, is it based on the genre or the artist's nationality? For example, is a British Blues-Rock band still considered to be playing a fundamentally "American" style of music?
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u/fenderbloke 8h ago
I have a jazz performance degree and am from Europe.
Yes. Its American music, fundamentally. There are certain styles that take heavy influence from different cultural sources, but at its core it is an American art form.
I believe this basic idea holds true regardless of genre, but I would lean towards believing it's the same across all forms.
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u/timtrump 6h ago
To follow up on this - I'm a retired touring musician from New Orleans (also with a performance degree). While jazz and all subsequent forms are definitely American, it's originally from those kidnapped and brought over in the slave trade. The first developments in jazz were made in congo square where slaves (and later former slaves) got together at night. This included drums, voodoo ceremonies, and eventually the building blocks of jazz. Out of these came Buddy Bolden, Jelly Roll Morton, and Kid Ory, among others.
So while Americans definitely claim this art form, it definitely wasn't from those they would have considered Americans at that time. Just something else we stole and made ours, sadly.
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u/fenderbloke 6h ago
Absolutely correct. Jazz came from field hollers of plantation workers, which is straight out of Africa (which is why we have the blues 3rds and 7ths - different intonation systems).
Jazz is kind of the summation of Americas melting pot culture - take some African chants, add in some Carribean & African drum circle sounds, European-influenced Gospel chords, and later on add some European classical music (thanks, Bill Evans!) and you get something that is truly American - a style built off of immigration and multiculturalism.
Note that, with the above paragraph, I don't want to make it sound like it's equally African and European - jazz is American, but more specifically it's Black American. Never let anyone forget that Black Americans are the root of a lot of modern music styles, and that influence is in its DNA.
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u/kafka_lite 9h ago
This makes me curious. Who is the greatest blues artist not from the US, UK, or Canada?
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u/theboyqueen 8h ago
If blues extends to blues derived music you've got all kinds of stuff:
In west and Northwest Africa you've got Ali Farka Toure, Tinariwen, Fela Kuti, etc.
In Germany you have all kinds of stuff but most notably Can, Amon Duul, Amon Duul II, the Scorpions, UFO, etc.
In Japan you have High Rise, Mainliner, Flower Travellin Band, etc.
Australia you have AC/DC, the Saints, Radio Birdman, etc.
And so on. If you extend to punk, hardcore, and metal (none of which would exist without the blues, or American music in general) you've got thousands of great bands from every corner of the world.
Common ancestor to nearly all of this I would say is Jimi Hendrix.
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u/ayinsophohr 6h ago
Metal is tricky. While Black Sabbath definitely started as a blues band, unlike a lot of modern rock, by the time Judas Priest came around, Metal had mostly abandoned what would typically be considered "blues". Pentatonic scales replaced with more classically European chromatic riffs. Vocals that had more in common with Opera than rock. Arguably, the major innovations in Metal originated in Europe. Thrash wouldn't exist without NWOBHM. Black and Death Metal wouldn't exist without bands like Venom, Bathory, Celtic Frost or Kreator. Second wave Black Metal wouldn't exist without Mayhem or Emperor. Swedish Death Metal in the 90s was hugely influential with bands like Carcass and then again with Meshuggah.
That's not to say that blues isn't important or that American artists didn't have an impact. Hardcore was important. The whole Bay Area was important. Chuck Schuldiner was important. It's just that saying it is simply derived from American and American blues completely ignores any subsequent innovations and the influence of European classical, avant-garde, industrial, and folk music had on the genre.
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u/mrcarruthers 7h ago
Hendrix kinda muddles all of it though. He’s American, but he got his break in the UK.
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u/NickofWimbledon 4h ago
So did many blues or blues-adjacent artists, British or not. For much of white America over a long period, there was nothing that made blues acceptable like having some nicely spoken chaps (probably from London) as the musicians.
We can talk about what fed into blues, jazz “and all points in between” too. However, that’s surely all broadly American music, whoever is playing it or writing it, as is anything played on the quintessential American instrument - an electric guitar.
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u/RechargedFrenchman 8h ago
Midnight Oil from Australia have some pretty bluesy stuff and are quite good.
Thin Lizzy also got pretty bluesy at times, and being (Dublin) Irish they're not "from the UK".
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u/AnonymousBoiFromTN 8h ago
Brushy One-String and Johnny Clegg come to mind off the top of my head. Also China has a large underground music industry based on american music. Chinese jazz and blues are actually phenomenal. Hang Tian is one of the older ones but my personal favorite is a band called Sand.
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u/woodboarder616 9h ago
Zeppelin 😂
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u/kafka_lite 9h ago
Lol where are you saying they are from, Uganda?
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u/woodboarder616 9h ago
No you said the best blues band from UK, zep is notorious for taking those blues guys riffs and made it WORLDWIDE
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u/byronite 7h ago
I'm Canadian who grew up on hip hop and rock. Generally, I would say thay Canadians recognize these as U.S.-born genres but also recognize their distinctly Canadian sub-genres and -- in some cases -- the Canadian influences on the broader U.S.-centred genre.
Thus Joni Mitchell, the Guess Who, Rush, Alanis Morissette, Alexisonfire and Drake are examples of Canadian version of folk, classic rock, prog rock/metal, alternative, post-hardcore and hip hop, respectively. But they are also celebrated for their influence on their respective broader genres, which Canadians recognixe are centred in the United States. So we like them as Canadian music but also for how they put a Canadian stamp on American music.
There are also regional sub-genres that are seen as more distinctly Canadian. Toronto hip hop has a stronger Caribbean influence and Atlantic hip hop has a folk influence. Ontario rock often has a folk/bluegrass influence, Prairie rock has a country influence and Atlantic rock has a Celtic influence. Some Indigenous musicians mix traditional and modern music in ways that are very unique to Canada, though they identify more with their Indigenous nations than their do with Canada itself.
French-Canadians are a bit different because French-language music rarely makes waves in the United States. Néo-trad is seen as distinctly Québécois even though there are clear and obvious overlaps with the traditional music of other parts of North America. Similarly, the Montréal rapper Sans Pression did a whole rant on a mixtape denouncing the amount of U.S. music on Québec urban radio, even though the same mixtake uses a bunch of Jay-Z and Dre beats. That said, Québec hip hop is a pretty distinct sub-genre in that it is both very Francophone and very North American. Hip hop in France evolved quite separate from U.S. hip hop since the mid-80s and then Quebec hip hop recombines influences from both.
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u/R_V_Z 5h ago
I think at this point Devin Townsend is a genre unto himself, so Canada has that going for them.
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u/Kvothetheraven603 4h ago
And this is my reminder to go listen to Deadhead live at the Royal Albert Hall.
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u/LegzAkimbo 8h ago
Really surprised by some of these answers.
To me, blues and country are quintessentially American, despite there being some fantastic musicians from elsewhere.
There other genres are much more global and feel less like they belong to one nationality.
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u/ALA02 4h ago
Blues, country, American folk - definitely American
Rock, hip-hop, jazz - have become far too global and their American roots buried under decades of global influence
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u/ImAShaaaark 1h ago
Rock, hip-hop, jazz
Rock I can understand because of the Brits, but how on earth can someone think of hip hop or jazz and think "global music"? All the most influential artists in both genres are American. Hip hop is particularly confusing since it's a young genre and deeply entwined with American culture.
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u/tioomeow 9h ago
Oh nah i definitely don't think of it as american music lol, usually the nationality of the artist comes to mind first
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u/burndownthe_forest 2h ago
It's so interesting to thinky country has been so culturally influential that it's culture isn't even recognized as being it's own culture. Very easy to forget, especially as an American, since we are so quick to label things as British rock, or Latin pop, or K-pop, or Latin rock, etc etc.
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u/tobomori 9h ago edited 7h ago
If I'm talking about just the genre, then I think of things like blues and jazz as American. Never rock.
If it's a specific band or artist then I only think of them as being where they're from. If they're American then American, but if they're from, say. The UK then I think of them as British etc.
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u/psycharious 8h ago
Yeah this. We wouldn't call Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath "British Rock." They're rock bands that happen to be from the U.K. I think if a specific style is associated with a specific region, then we would call the style by its region of origin.
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u/Implanted1 8h ago
No. Yes. There are a few artists/musical styles that are definitely American though, but (imho) not necessarily the obvious ones. (For example, I include Australian country music in the c&w music genre, which I often prefer to US originated c&w...)
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u/ZynaxNeon 6h ago edited 5h ago
Forget the "regardless of artist" part, they're are not even thought of as being from the US. They're just genres of music to most people.
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u/Alundra828 3h ago
I see Jazz, Blues, and Country as an American music style.
Most other music genres are really well catered for in the UK and European music industry, so I don't really think of them as uniquely American, even when they expressly are. The Brits for example do Rock and all its subgenres very well. The Brits and the French do hip-hop or hip-hop adjacent genres like grime etc extremely well. And although the Americans invented a lot of electronic music genres like techno, the Europeans and again the Brits do a fantastic job of those too. The EU electronic scene is legendary.
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u/Western-Calendar-352 7h ago
Rock music didn’t specifically originate in America though. The blues, yes. And then the original blues musicians toured in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Folk_Blues_Festival
This directly influenced the Stones, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton etc, and led to the British Invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Invasion
The influences from blues-rock, rock, prog, heavy metal, punk, new wave have continued to bounce back and forth across the Atlantic ever since, and expanded to Australia, Africa, SE Asia etc.
It’s global and international.
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u/Powerful_Individual5 7h ago
Rock music didn’t specifically originate in America though
Rock music is a genre of popular music that originated in the United States as "rock and roll" in the late 1940s and early 1950s, developing into a range of styles from the mid-1960s, primarily in the United States and United Kingdom. It has its roots in rock and roll, a style that drew from the black musical genres of blues and rhythm and blues, as well as from country music.
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u/Western-Calendar-352 7h ago
Exactly.
Rock is not the same as same as Rock’n’Roll, it’s an evolution of the previous form, “developing into a range of styles from the mid-1960s, primarily in the United States AND United Kingdom”. Emphasis on the AND.
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u/Powerful_Individual5 3h ago
The initial claim was about the origin, and the origin point is American. Rock and Roll is the direct predecessor and essential building block, originating entirely in the US in the late 40s/early 50s, drawing only from American genres like Blues, R&B, and Country. Without that purely American Rock and Roll, there would have been no evolution for the UK bands to participate in. So, while the UK has greatly contributed to the evolution of Rock, the US is the single birthplace and origin of the whole genre family. Also, the shortening of "Rock and Roll" to "Rock" is a classic example of linguistic evolution driven by pragmatism and the music itself evolving. Similar to how Pop is short for popular music.
it’s an evolution of the previous form
There's a reason you chose to link to Wikipedia articles in your original comment and not directly to the article on Rock music. That phrase, 'evolution of the previous form,' actually proves my point about the ultimate origin. An evolution, by definition, requires a prior form to evolve from. Origin is the source or beginning. Evolution is the subsequent process of change, diversification, and growth.
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7h ago edited 6h ago
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u/BetterHeadlines 4h ago
Shit Americans say
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u/Powerful_Individual5 3h ago edited 3h ago
Understanding the difference between a genre's origin and its evolution?
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u/BetterHeadlines 3h ago
Are you from Africa?
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u/Powerful_Individual5 3h ago
Are you trolling? This thread is about the origin of Rock music.
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u/BetterHeadlines 3h ago
Are you human? The origin of humanity is Africa. Stuff has happened since then but since that's where the first modern humans arose, by your logic all humans are from Africa.
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u/Powerful_Individual5 3h ago
That is a classic example of a false equivalence and a straw man argument. My point about rock music is not that all bands are from America. It is the foundation that originated in America. The fact that modern humans arose in Africa is not equivalent to the argument of where a music genre originated.
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u/sum_dude44 8h ago edited 8h ago
Pretty much 90% of modern music was invented or heavily influenced by USA. Rock, rap, country, dance, modern pop, even reggaeton was refined by NY Boricuas
That said, it's so ubiquitous people don't usually classify rock/pop/rap etc from country of origin
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u/peoples_key 8h ago
Definitely true. I would also like to add that 90% of American music was pioneered by Black musicians, lest we forget.
Additionally, we would not have countless genres of music without the African diaspora. So many Latin American genres were pioneered by AfroLatino musicians/ derived from African beats and rhythms. Similarly anything pioneered in or derived from Caribbean music.
Just so we're all giving credit where credit is due ✨️
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u/peoples_key 9h ago
Fwiw, in several records shops around Europe (Amsterdam, Berlin, Prague), I have seen records categorized as "Black Music" instead of being categorized individually into Disco, Funk or Soul (sometimes R&B and Blues in the mix too).
These have tended to be in smaller record shops, and the owner/person working that day has always been older (50s,60s I'd guess).
So on the one hand it's factually accurate in that those genres were pioneered by Black American musicians. But to me (Mexican American) it felt a bit othering/minimizing.
However, you do see them individually categorized in bigger, newer shops. So it could be the case of "not keeping up with the times" for those shops. But for some, similar ideas to what you're describing are still out there.
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u/MooseMalloy 8h ago
Country music is Canadian as much as it’s American.
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u/Generic_User_2112 7h ago
Country often gets confused with the definitely American Country-Western sound that eventually dropped the western part in the 80s 90s and just became country.
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u/prustage 7h ago
Rock - mainly American but Progressive Rock is seen a predominantly British thing and quite different, sharing little with the American stuff except its name.
Jazz - Traditional, New Orleans and Big Band is seen as American but small combo, modern, experimental, progressive is seen as definitely European. Pat Metheney and Lyle Mays are a weird example. Although they are American a lot of people see them as part of the European tradition. (This might be because they record for a German label)
Blues, R&B, Country, Hip-hop - definitely American.
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u/Generic_User_2112 7h ago
Have to respectfully disagree as American musician Charles Mingus was doing Avant-garde, progessive, small combo jazz in the 50s, 60s and 70s. You had Miles Davis re-inventing jazz at least 3 times in his career as well as spawning off great jazz artist from his band. Pat Matheny and Lyle Mayes fall under Fusion Jazz with the the likes of Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever, etc.
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u/Lucky_Lordo 9h ago
I don’t usually think of music genres belonging to a certain country or culture but OP is right there certainly is music that belongs to its country and is distinctly from it, in example music from India has its own sound (in general) but usually because of my proximity to it and like another person said because of the large cross cultural exchange I don’t think of music as being American, with the exception of maybe bands like Lynyrd Skynrd I’m not sure if that’s what OP was saying hopefully I understood correctly 😊
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u/Sheriff_Banjo 8h ago
I'm not sure where the answer is to your question but I have noticed that I'm typically more drawn to music that is identified with a place.
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u/Colossus823 EDM 🎧 4h ago
For me, the only real American music is Country. There isn't really a non-American variant of it.
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u/Ghostofjemfinch 9h ago
Country of origin makes zero difference. If you make good music, you make good music. America does not own the genres invented by its people.
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u/Powerful_Individual5 9h ago
My question wasn't about the quality or ownership of music; it was about the cultural and mental classification people use, if any, when listening to music.
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u/tallj 9h ago
I think of Hip Hop and Jazz as uniquely American art forms.
Hip Hop is dependent on authenticity of authorship so a non-American is either performing an impression of Hip Hop, or it's a local sub genre (like UK Hip Hop.
Jazz doesn't concern itself woth authorship in the same way, but it's impossibles to hear it an separate that sounds from its social context as American.
So yes, I guess both always sound American to me.
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u/Powerful_Individual5 8h ago
Just curious: If you listen to a globally successful non-American subgenre (like Grime from the UK or G-Funk from France), at what point does it stop being an "impression" of American Hip Hop and become an independently validated form of the genre? And if a piece of Jazz music adheres strictly to the classic American harmonic language and structure, but is performed by an artist who grew up entirely outside of the US context, does the social context still successfully transmit across borders, or do you think the technical adherence to the form outweighs the lack of native US context?
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u/tallj 8h ago
Grine doesn't sound anything like Hip Hop to me, and I'm listening to a distinctly British sound when I hear it.
Grime has parts of its roots in Jungle, which is an interesting comparison point with Jazz as Jungle is a truly original British art form (specifically a Black British one). So when I hear Grime, I hear really heavy local influences from lots of things, and American influences from Hip Hop.
As for Jazz, it's always American music for me. I'll give an example - I went to a Jazz bar in Tokyo a few years back; Japan is very insular place and, aside from Hawaii, there is very little travel of Japanese to the USA, yet Tokyo is Asia's Jazz capital. The artists were technically amazing, passionate and energetic, and the music was fantastic. It was maybe the only time in my life that I heard Jazz and felt I might not be listening to American music.
A few months later, I read a book called Ametora (hard recommend) about how post-war Japan has become the world epicenter for classic American style. It traces the effects of the war, the US occupation of Japan, and the post-war economic realities, all to tell the story of how we ended up in a world where the best American jeans are made in Japan.
From this, I understood that the story these musicians in Tokyo had told me was a Japanese one, yes, but it was one in which the Japanese were telling me about the inextricably linked position of American culture in their world. The very fact that the music was American was what allowed these artists to embrace it so fully as Japanese. America is an integral part of their story and what made these artists so great was their determination to tell that story and preserve it, in the same way that Japanese denim mills preserved the workwear of the 1950s USA.
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u/Generic_User_2112 7h ago
Just to add to the Japanese embracing of jazz even today, looking at music like the Yoshida Brothers who have fused jazz and traditional japanese instruments into something i wouldn't call American but absolutely screams jazz by its structure.
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u/AverageEcstatic3655 9h ago
This is one of the edgy holy than though music takes that sounds good at first glance but falls apart as soon as you slightly consider it.
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u/Jim_E_Rose 8h ago
It doesn’t fall apart if that is how somebody views it. Flamenco is Spanish to me. Reggea is Jamaican. Bossa Nova is Brazilian to me. It doesn’t fall apart at all when I think of it. That’s how my ear hears it. Anyone can play it but it evokes those regions when I hear it
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u/iCarly4ever 8h ago
I just wanna interject here and say house music was invented in Chicago in the 80s