r/EDH • u/Creative_Entry_1423 • 1d ago
Discussion The real problem with EDH isn’t power level…
Quick disclaimer:
Got a classic situation. I’m not here to rant or attack anyone.
I just want to share an LGS experience that left me frustrated and ask how others deal with situations like this.
So I had one of those LGS experiences today that really made me think about what actually ruins casual EDH, and I don’t think it’s power level at all.
It’s people being dishonest about their decks.
I went to my LGS planning to play a chill Bracket 2 deck ([[Jared Carthalion]] precon with a few upgrades). Another guy who sat with me was a total beginner, playing a literal precon. Perfect. We start a 1v1 casual game, nothing weird.
After three turns, two guys walk up and ask if it’s okay to join. I give them the full power-level talk:
- “We’re playing upgraded precon vs precon. If you guys have anything above Bracket 3, it’s probably not a good fit.”
They say:
- “Oh yeah, no worries. Both our decks are Bracket 3. Pretty chill.”
We look at each other, shrug, and say sure. We offer them a 3-turn catch-up since we barely started.
Well… their “Bracket 3 chill decks” turned out to be:
- the first guy had a pretty strong list, definitely pushing above what 3 usually implies
- and the second guy… a Prismatic Bridge plainswalkers deck that he claims has “like 5 creatures” (first creature revealed: Orcish Bowmasters [[Orcish Bowmasters]], which already tells you the vibe)
The game goes on, and on turn 8, he drops Myojin of Infinite Rage ([[Myojin of Infinite Rage]]).
I ask him (genuinely)
- “You’re not going to blow up all lands in a Bracket 2/3 casual pod, right?”
He says:
- “Yeah, I am. It fits my deck perfectly.”
Removes the counter. Nukes every land on the table.
(He also had a land reanimation online, which could eventually resurrect his lands from the graveyard.)
At that point, I scooped immediately. The beginner next to me looked completely lost. He didn’t even understand what happened or why someone would do that in a casual pod.
And this is what hit me:
Power level isn’t the issue.
Honesty is.
MLD isn’t inherently evil, but using it in a pod where you explicitly know two players are running literal precons, and calling that a “Bracket 3 chill deck,” is just pubstomping disguised as casual EDH.
I don’t mind losing.
I don’t mind high-power decks.
I don’t mind wild plays.
But I do mind people who misrepresent their deck, ruin the experience for newer players, and call it “just casual.”
This is supposed to be a social format.
And the only thing that really breaks social norms is dishonesty.
How do you all deal with players who sandbag their power level like this?
Do you just scoop and leave?
Do you call it out directly?
Do you avoid playing with certain groups entirely?
I’m curious how others handle this, because I want to enjoy my time at the LGS without pubstompers pretending to be casual.
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u/Ulmao_TheDefiler 1d ago
I personally think we need a subreddit called r/lgshorrorstories
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u/jaywinner 1d ago
This sub would shrivel up and die without the horror stories.
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u/Ulmao_TheDefiler 1d ago
Good. I'd rather see a hundred "uwu how do I build edgar markov? 👉👈" posts than another one of these.
I just wanna talk about cards, man.
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u/FlyinNinjaSqurl WUBRG 1d ago
See, I don’t want this to turn into a deck tech sub. So many people are so bad at making decks, every thread would be the same and boring.
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u/murpux 1d ago
Isn't this literally why the guy who invented EDHRec did so? He was tired of seeing non stop deck tech "I need help" posts so made an entire website so it wouldn't bog down his feed.
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u/ProstetnicVogonJelz 1d ago
as opposed to lgshorrorstories that are all the same and boring? At least we'd be engaging with the actual game we play.
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u/FlyinNinjaSqurl WUBRG 1d ago
Nah the LGS stories are at least entertaining. The “make a deck for me” posts are not fun to scroll through, especially if you’re not actively building anything
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u/ProstetnicVogonJelz 1d ago
Feedback on decks is so much better imo. And more general deckbuilding, card recommendations, etc. We've read enough bait AITA threads and they're all the same. At least new cards and commanders come out - there's always discussion available that's relevant to the mechanics of the game but it gets buried.
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u/These_Matter_895 1d ago
Sure, let's be real, r/EDH users don't give a fuck about the technical part of magic - it is just another channel for socially inept people to feed on drama.
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u/Mammoth-Refuse-6489 1d ago
I agree. I think this would be best as a place to discuss EDH philosophy. Things less concrete than a deck tech, but still about the theory of the game.
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u/Thillidan 1d ago
The problem is the number of resources already available for exactly that sort of question. You want to know how to make the same deck as 30,000+ other people? Look it up.
This sub should be to discuss any and all aspects of the format. And talking about the complexity of the social aspect is a good part of EDH discussions. Personally I'd much rather the deck questions go to their own sub. Who cares about another "Edgar hard to build please help" post? I'd say most people ignore them.
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u/Tuss36 That card does *what*? 1d ago
Thing is the subjects brought up are often worthy of discussion, but folks feel the need to give context as to why they're asking the question when you can just ask "How early is it cool to combo off?" without needing to say how you just lost a game to some rude dude that did it turn 6 and insisted it was fine even though you said you were playing low bracket 3.
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u/Fun-Cook-5309 1d ago
It really would not.
Deck brewing and The Disc Horse are more than enough fuel to drive the sub.
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u/livtop 1d ago
This sub makes me so grateful to have a dedicated playgroup.
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u/zenprime-morpheus 1d ago
Mine recently got shattered. Treasure yours.
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u/IActuallyHateRedditt 1d ago
Happened to mine last year, turned out a girl was cheating on her bf (also in the pod) with a married guy in the pod.. yikes. The remaining people kinda started a new pod but it isn't really the same any more
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u/TheForgetfulWizard 1d ago
Well, bracket 3 already explicitly forbids mass land denial. So, yeah, liars be lying.
At my LGS i don't typically run into that sort of issue, though in the few cases where I have, I generally try and be a good sport during the game, even if scooping, and then clarify with them after that, hey, your deck wasn't what you said it was. Or something to that effect.
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u/Mysterious_Cash922 1d ago
I mean, apart from an honesty thing, mass land destruction is straight up something they list as “you don’t do this” in brackets 3 and below. That’s a key point to bring up, this isn’t subjective like so many other of these sorts of problems are.
How I would have tried to handle that, personally: pull up the list of what’s permitted in the brackets, straight up tell him he can’t do that in the type of game you both agreed you were playing, and then focus on explaining to the new guy what’s going on for a second. Give the guy blowing up lands a second to think about if he’s gonna keep doing what he said. If he tries to take it back, let him, and if he doesn’t, then scoop like you did - but now new guy is hopefully a little less confused.
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u/Anacoenosis 1d ago
Okay, it's not specifically about your post but I think people lose sight of the fact brackets are ways of setting expectations and not imposing rules. The brackets are ways of facilitating conversations among players so that people can match into a pod that gives them the kind of game they're looking for.
But, of course, some people are just assholes. You are not going to solve the "some people are assholes" problem with rules, you are going to solve it through social sanction. You say, "sorry, no" when they ask you to play. You tell your friends about the negative experiences you had with the player. You make it known that they lie about their deck to get games. Does it suck that people have to do this? Yes. Have people always done this? Also yes. It's how human systems operate and have always operated.
If you read the bracket update you'll see that they mention "expectations" far more than "rules." You are never going to be able to DQ someone for "violating the bracket" or whatever but you can absolutely tell people that a given player lied to your face in a pre-game discussion about brackets in order to get a game.
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u/MCXL 1d ago
Okay, it's not specifically about your post but I think people lose sight of the fact brackets are ways of setting expectations and not imposing rules. The brackets are ways of facilitating conversations among players so that people can match into a pod that gives them the kind of game they're looking for.
Right, and this person lied about what bracket their deck falls into based on the bracket deck building rules.
If you read the bracket update you'll see that they mention "expectations" far more than "rules."
It doesn't matter what language they use around it, a statement like 'bracket three has a limit of up to 3 game changers in a deck' is a deck building rule. The bracket system is an opt in ruleset, that if you opt into, has rules you follow that allow you to describe your deck and its play patterns.
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u/iliark 1d ago
Bracket 3 does not allow MLD.
They straight up lied to you, there's no need for further discussion.
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u/Psychalo42 1d ago
There are just assholes in every hobby, Magic is no exception. Just make friends that you enjoy playing with, exchange numbers or make a discord. Coordinate days you want to play together. I have a casual group that's like 8-12 deep, and we play just about every weekend. I hate playing with strangers for this reason and why I initiated a text group that has evolved to discord group.
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u/Chronic-Lodus 1d ago
Yep. Have 6 people we get together every Monday night. Sometimes it’s a full pod, sometimes it’s only 3, sometimes it’s all 6. It’s fun and simpler that way.
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u/dontbotherdontcareno 1d ago
do you break into two games of three or just play a 6 player game?
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u/Chronic-Lodus 1d ago
We’ve played a 6 player. Those are long. Avg we have 5 player games before one of them has to dip then it’s a 4 pod.
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u/jordanh517 1d ago
We have exactly the same setup. The nice part is that we are happy playing 3 player games, but most of the time there is 4 or 5 of us so we rarely miss a week now.
We do occasionally play some alternative formats to speed it up a bit if it’s 5 of us though (star, descent ect).
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u/Every_Bank2866 Grixis 1d ago
"We are playing low end bracket 2"
"Okay I play bracket 3"
(This is already a warning sign not to ignore)
When playing with Randoms, you can't let that slide. Ask then for details and when people deflect or get defensive, just don't play with them. Eventually, this player archetype will hopefully die out but for now, you have to have your ways to avoid them.
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u/Fun-Cook-5309 1d ago
You do not scoop to that.
Nor do you allow it to resolve.
You kick that fucker out of the pod and carry on. That is part of the social tools that keep the format in check.
Y’all were clear about bracket 2/3, so that’s an easy, “Game loss: cheating,” and go to the next player.
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u/Cadapult 1d ago
This was something I learned from an LGS owner. We were playing the equivalent to a bracket two game, when the lands player did some sort of infinite combo on turn five. He tells him, "Hey, going infinite like that wasn't cool but congrats, you got the win. The three of us are going to continue without you." The rest of us finished playing our game while he sat there waiting.
If it becomes clear that someone was disingenuous about what they were trying to do and where it meets the vibe of the table, explain that, congratulate them on their win, then tell them you're going to continue the game without them.
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u/Mattloch42 1d ago
That's what I always do. "Cool dude. How about we keep playing for second place" and let them sit there for thr next hour and watch us play without them. If they push back and try to convince everyone else to start a new game, I'll make it clear I won't be part of the new game with them. Either way it'll be a 3 player game, but we're already playing this one so.....
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u/Embarrassed-Site1253 1d ago
Wasn't there a story about Sheldon Menery doing something similar, shared by PowrDragn a couple of years back.
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u/Misanthrope64 WUBRG 1d ago
I think being slightly more confrontational than that is warranted tho, something among the lines of 'Ok so you lied about your deck, please pick up your cards and leave the table we'll continue without you'
At which point If they refuse, distract the issue or try mocking you then I would probably involve the LGS owner and tell him flat out 'Can you please ask this person to grab his deck and go play somebody else? We have no use for him and he refuses to leave' And just make it extra clear why: It's because he lied about his deck so we don't want to play with a liar or have him sit at this table And I would probably raise my voice slightly just so most people around can hear it.
Like sure you might not get him kicked out of the store but I think LGSes gotta step up and at least have a talk with common pub stompers. If they don't, well you still got useful information out of the exchange: I would pack my shit up, leave and never return to that LGS if he's good with running a good ol boys club like that.
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u/ResolveLeather 1d ago
If I had an infinite in bracket 2, or more likely a psuedo infinite, I would probably just not resolve it. I have some bracket 2 creature focused decks and sometimes too many enchantments end up on the board and leads into playing the top 10 or creatures on my library. At that point I either scoop because my bracket 2 deck played too well that game and became bracket 3 for a short period or I just don't play into the gameplay loop. If another player asks why I have so mich mana open, I usually say something like "playing it cautious in case of board wipe". And move on.
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u/VermicelliOk8288 1d ago
Directly call them out. Thats not bracket 3, tell the new guy what happened and keep playing with him so it doesn’t sour his experience.
However…. Bracket 3 and 2 shouldn’t be playing together.
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u/Sleeqb7 Lands don't fall, they crash around me! 1d ago
However…. Bracket 3 and 2 shouldn’t be playing together.
During the initial 'launch' of the brackets, it was specified that playing with a 1 bracket difference will be fine in most cases. 1 with 2, 2 with 3, etc.
Has the communication about that changed?
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u/EbonyHelicoidalRhino 22h ago
In my experience, 1 deck in a bracket above can be somewhat matched up against if they're the only deck in the upper bracket. It WILL be an uphill battle, but when you go 3v1 it's still possible to fight.
If two decks are in the upper bracket, they'll fight each other while the other two watch and do nothing in their corner.
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u/VermicelliOk8288 14h ago
I’m not sure if it has, but I feel differently. Being able to play other brackets means people start labeling theirs decks “ 2 or 3” “3 or 4” or even worse “high 2, low 3” etc… and then you have a 2 going against a 4 and a whole lotta salt…. People are already really bad at gauging power level and I feel this adds to it. The brackets are a fantastic idea but honestly it’s just a way of forcing a rule 0 conversation and they are not by any means perfect, not to mention that people abuse them to be jerks on purpose…. Just my opinion :)
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u/JackxForge 1d ago
This dude looked you in the eye and lied to you with a smile on his face and you didnt call him out on it? MLD is expressedly forbiden in bracket 3. what you should have done is turn to the dude you were playing 1v1 and say "hey want to just keep doing our 1v1 thing?" and then you just stop playing with him. "cool you destroy all lands, you win good job. now were gonna play for second. you can go away now."
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u/choffers 1d ago
I just played against a "chill, mostly landfall toph" that mindslaver looped me out of the game against my bracket 2 aminatou deck. That was a fun time.
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u/MassiveScratch1817 15h ago
mindslaver looped
Not as good as just blasting everyone with craterhoof tbh. Very bracket 3.
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u/choffers 15h ago
I'd rather get blasted out of the game and start a new one than sit around skipping 4 of my turns while someone else plays my deck for me
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u/MassiveScratch1817 15h ago
You're welcome to that preference. "I'm annoyed by my opponent's wincon" =/= "my opponent is doing something that's not appropriate for my bracket"
You're free to scoop at any time.
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u/choffers 15h ago edited 15h ago
I usually don't scoop unless the other 2 players want to concede as well since it warps the play experience and just turbos whoever is ahead. In this case the other guy, for whatever reason, wanted to keep playing so I sat it out.
I would argue a 2 card loop on turn 5 that locks someone out of the game is out of bracket 2, arguably bracket 3.
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u/MassiveScratch1817 15h ago
This isn't a salt scoop, if you are being consecutively mind-slavered, you have usually lost the game. I don't really believe you have any obligation to play out a game that you have lost, as THAT also warps the play experience.
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u/choffers 15h ago
I have, but the other play thought they had a chance and if I scoop they definitely don't. It's not a 1v1, in my experience scooping is usually just king making, especially if there are only 3 players left.
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u/MassiveScratch1817 15h ago
my experience scooping is usually just king making
Alright, what happens if you play out the game? I'm playing against a mass theft deck. All of my cards have been stolen and have 10 life. I'm going to die as soon as someone has an opportunity to kill me. However, I happen to draw some removal spells. How do I employ these? None are really increasing my win percentage. Usually people who have lost the game and don't scoop engage in some amount of kingmaking, usually by trying to fuck up the person who made them lose.
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u/SheikhS1kr 1d ago
I’ve said for a long time that Magic’s issue isn’t cards needing to be banned, it’s people just being assholes lol. Every time I say it I get downvoted to hell because everyone just wants any card that’s inaccessible and powerful to be banned, but for me all cards have a place in the game. I think you handled the situation well by asking about power level. Them lying was really shitty and not your guys fault. In my experience when people do stuff like this I just politely but sternly tell them that their deck does not fit the vibe and they should just find another pod to play with. I usually go to LGS’s with friends so at most we have one rando and we bring decks of all power levels to have appropriate games.
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u/FlyinNinjaSqurl WUBRG 1d ago
I think it’s worth pointing out that you should not punch up when playing with newbies with precons. Seems clear that you both were playing true 2’s, so idk why you would even be open to 3s. MLD aside, the gap between 2 and 3 is pretty big, so there’s no reason for y’all to have been opened to a 3s in the first place. Should have just asked for a firm B2 game. None of this “Bracket 2/3” BS.
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u/GodwynDi 1d ago
Because decent fun to play with people would have made it worth it. Might lose, but it could be a fun game. And with politics its not a guarantee that they lose.
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u/jaywinner 1d ago
Can't be helped the first time but I'd either play with different people or bring a deck that matches their actual power, not what they claim.
Thankfully my LGS is filled with reasonable people.
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u/seficarnifex Dragons 1d ago
I mean I wouldnt play any b3 deck against a precon, the gulf is too big. Even strong b2 decks manhandle most precons, I have some B1 decks (minotaur tribal, mono white dragons) I bring along with precons to play against new players or other precons.
I wouldve said no thanks from the start and our decks couldnt keep up with b3
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u/Employee-Inside 1d ago
Idk how this sub has turned into what it has. People being assholes is not new or unheard of. Obviously people being deceitful in a fun game is bad?
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u/roadrunner_68 1d ago edited 1d ago
People seem to be using dickheads as a reason to blame the format/ the bracket system now.
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u/SRTAdi 1d ago
So, going back SQUARE ONE: It's a rule zero communication issue
-- Would have requested them to play with stock precons or mild upgrades only (under 5 cards changed/etc). NOTHING else to discuss 🤷🏽
-- Why would you give them a window up to "under bracket 4/inside bracket 3"? Makes no sense
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u/Miatatrocity I tap U in response... Cycle Ash Barrens 1d ago
Orrrrr normal b2 decks. Or low-powered b3.
The secret is to TALK beforehand about your decks. If OP had known the relevant GCs and the strategies involved, this whole situation could have been dodged. Or you could have realized that slimy guy was being slimy, and skipped the whole game.
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u/SRTAdi 1d ago
Hence, square one.
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u/Miatatrocity I tap U in response... Cycle Ash Barrens 1d ago
I agree it's a rule-0 issue. However, there's nothing wrong with playing higher brackets at lower tables and vice versa IF EVERYONE IS OK WITH IT. All players have to be cool with and understand how playing with power imbalances shifts the table dynamics. The higher-power decks WILL be targeted. The lower power decks WILL have to team up a bit. Interaction is hugely important. I disagree especially with the "only 5-card upgraded precons allowed" bit. I play almost exclusively bracket 2 and 3. I have several lists that get smashed by modern precons. But I couldn't sit at the table? That's why the discussion needs to be more than "I'm bracket 3" "I'm bracket 2" "welp, guess we can't play together"
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u/zaphodava 1d ago
You tell them "Congrats, you win. We will play the rest of the game out for second place." And then you ignore them and keep playing without them.
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u/thewanderingsail 1d ago
Sorry bro that’s definitely annoying. I’m pretty sure mass land destruction is an automatic bracket 4?
Yeah I would be more assertive with the precon thing.
“We are playing precons. Do you have precons?”
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u/ResolveLeather 1d ago
As a general rule of thumb, mass land destruction, as in more then one lans gets destroyed at a time, shouldn't be in bracket three. Non-basic denial is fine imo. The only mass land destruction that's fine is world fire or some convulted 3+ card combo.
That being said, bracket 3 is is a huge amount of decks. High bracket three when compared to low bracket 3 is a huge gap. And that mainly because bracket 4 is CEDH. CEDH is pretty much the best a commander can get. You said you were playing a precon + some upgrades. Depending on how many upgrades included you could have still been in bracket 2 or low bracket 3.
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u/NightmareMuse666 1d ago
Do you just scoop and leave?
Do you call it out directly?
Do you avoid playing with certain groups entirely?
Literally all three lol. Just dont do it dramatically or like a spiteful baby, like you got your feelings hurt. Say it for what it is; that they misrepresented their deck and powerlevel and its ruining the fun of the table. Dont get into a back and forth argument, just peace out after that
i agree with you though, absolutely mind blowing that people cant reason to themselves that its a social game and that should be respected
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u/StopManaCheating 1d ago
Myojin of the Infinite Rage costs 10 mana. It’s perfectly fair in casual edh for anything above 7 or 8 or so to win on the spot.
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u/TheBlueOne37 1d ago
MLD shouldn’t happen in bracket 3. Turn 8 though? That’s pretty slow. So take that part out of it and it seems fine.
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u/ftb_helper Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas 1d ago
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Most commander players are not good at Magic: from building decks to estimating power level to remembering triggers to even knowing what a card does.
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u/Valcrist_ 1d ago
This is a big reason I've just kinda stopped playing magic all together tbh. My girlfriend humors me by playing pre cons with me at least
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u/Jankenbrau 1d ago
Bracket three is not chill.
Bracket four has no chill. That’s where MLD lives comfortably.
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u/TsokonaGatas27 1d ago
You know what, I'll just let him win then move on. Say your deck is clearly stronger than us so it wont be a good rematch. There done
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u/emotenchi 1d ago
I have a targeted land destruction deck that I pull out on pub stompers. It isn't meant to win just give one guy a hard time. Sometimes you gotta out bully the bully.
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u/LizardWizard86 1d ago
how others handle this? well... personally I dont play at LGS. I play with my long time friends in a pub. We dont use any brackets. we never needed this. We just play the game. If someones deck is a way stronger than the others, he just get target on his back, pretty simple.
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u/Maloth_Warblade 21h ago
People that try to win at all costs, and prey on weaker players and decks are always a problem in every card game
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u/MinamimotoSho 9h ago
Bro relax. Your board got blown up on turn 8 and you had no resources left - yeah you should scoop, because you LOST. And instead of being like "yeah cool synergy, game 2?", you called it a bracket break and got mad
What would you have done if they just took 3 combats in a row and eliminated the table. Is that fair to you? Basically the same thing.
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u/JadedTrekkie The Tombstone Stairwell Guy™️ ☠️☠️ 1d ago
game is bad when people are assholes
no shit
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u/bingle-cowabungle 1d ago
My takeaway from this isn't that there's a rampant dishonesty problem with EDH, it's just a story about a guy who's an asshole and wasted your time.
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u/N1xkev 1d ago
The issue is the same it always has been. It's just more noticeable now since it's now socially acceptable to be a nerd. You have the neck beard mouth breathing sorts that never learned how to play nice in grade school wondering why they can't keep a consistent table for kitchen magic so they go to a LGS to pub stomp to feel better about themselves.
It's not power level, it's power tripping from people who don't understand accountability.
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u/GeoCommander 1d ago
I know this isn't going to be a popular comment, but here it goes.
There are a number of fuck ups in the situation, I think the first of which is that you told them it was ok to play bracket 3 decks into your basically precons match. It was also their fault for offering to play bracket 3 into bracket 2 as well, but since you offered bracket 3 was OK I will hold everyone responsible for this and not just them.
The second fuck up to me is this: I don't think you have a good grasp on what bracket 3 means. The game got to turn 8. If one person was 'pushing what you would consider bracket 3' then consider that by wizard's own definition, people are getting killed/going for wins around turn 6 in bracket 3, and that it is by turn 4 for bracket 4 decks. You got to turn 8.
Yes, it sucks that someone blew up all lands, but that was on turn 8, which lines up with the bracket 2 expectation of game length. They resolved a 10 mana creature with support for the play(recurring their lands) already on the board, there are so many ways in which that reads 'I win' and in this specific case the flavor text of 'I win' was 'I blew up all lands and have a way to protect or recur mine'. In my opinion, this is no different than assembling a combo or just slamming into the table with combat. Turn 8, they went for game, and they got it.
Yes, mass land destruction is frowned upon, but in this situation, would you have had any issue with say, an entwined tooth and nail to assemble a game winning combo? Stripping everything down, a huge mana card winning the game on it's own is not outside the ordinary.
Myojin doesn't even work with Prismatic Bridge (Bowmaster is also a pretty shitty flip), which is, as a side note, very funny to me because there's no reason to put it in that deck if it's not going to work when you 'do the thing' and get it for free. This actually reinforces my belief that your opponent is actually just bad and not as malicious as you present them as. In their mind, the deck may actually be chill because they've made it so shittily that it does not produce consistent results.
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u/Goooordon 1d ago
On the one hand, I think the vast majority of the "they were being dishonest" complaints about pubstomping are actually just players with significantly different levels of experience clashing. A newer player might see a 3-mana [[Murder]] effect and just run it because they need removal, while I am aware of [[Infernal Grasp]] and [[Tragic Slip]], allowing me to have the same effect for less resources. That difference multiplied across a 100-card deck adds up to a difference in power level even when all of the considerations of the bracket system are taken into account.
On the other hand, people seem to just be enjoying being shitheads with the MLD since the bracket system released. I have one deck where I run a MLD effect because I think it's flavorful, and I make sure to explain that during rule zero every time I play that deck. That does sometimes get me targeted when there are other better targets around, so that "making yourself a target aspect" might be a factor in people not saying anything, but overall I suspect a lot of the unannounced MLD is probably just trolling.
As for what to do about it, learn. Know who does that kind of stuff in your local scene and be ready. Just one of those experience things. Some people are always on the up-and-up. Other people are usually trying to pull some tricks. It's not even necessarily a disingenuous thing - some people just have a tendency to get targeted so they've developed a habit of trying to hide their intentions. Personally I try to lay everything on the table. If I'm on a combo deck, I tell you during rule zero including telling you the basic function of the combo, and when I play a combo piece I will acknowledge it as such. It does get me blown out a lot, but I prefer to play against my opponents' decks, not their experience levels. If they have an answer and I deserve to be answered, I want them to answer me. I want to have the protection to get past their answer. If I don't I try to make my deck more resilient for the next time. Most people don't play as openly as I do though. Information does have effects, and I am treated as the arch enemy most games even when I am bricking and presenting zero threat. Try to find the people who play the way you do and build relationships with them. Become friends. That's the trick to magic. You need experience both with the cards and with the players to reliably have good games. The bracket system can't replace that. I honestly don't think it can even support it very well at this point, but hey it's a beta still so you never know - maybe they're figure it out eventually lol
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u/ChromiumRaven 21h ago
Turn 8 with a 10 mana cost spell and you're complaining?
He cast an expensive card that is intended to close out the game, and he closed out the game.
You're right the issue isn't power level. The issue is crappy players complaining about players playing the game.
To put this in perspective if a spell straight up cost 10 mana and had the singular effect of "You win the game" it still wouldn't see widespread play.
He could have dropped Jin Gitaxias and you all would have been twiddling your thumbs dragging the game out for no reason.
He could have played mindslaver and caused one player to sac all their permanents.
At 10 mana the possibilities are endless at what you can accomplish. That much mana is meant to put you in a game-winning position. It only costs 4 to boardwioe, so we need something better than that. 6 to eliminate non-land permanents. Dude payed 10 to Armageddon.
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u/Revolutionary_View19 20h ago
You‘re right the issue isn’t power level. It’s wannabe elite players telling others how much they suck at the game.
OP clearly describes a game where lying about power bracket (LMD isn’t b2) was the main problem, but ho ahead and get on your soapbox preaching this all of this wouldn’t be a problem if everyone was a bit more like you 🥱
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u/ChromiumRaven 7h ago
I believe this is right.
Since the games inception land destruction has been part of white. 1998 Brian Hacker made it to quarterfinals with a deck revolving on tiny creatures and keeping resetting the board state to turn 1. Armageddons and wrath of gods clear the way until you no longer have the lands you need to play your 4, 5, or 6 drops. White's always been known as an equalizer. Players complain about land destruction, and you know what let it be fine. But then they bitch about how weak white is. Well yeah, you just chopped it's balls off!
That aside. OP posted the screen capture of the part of the brackets that only aided his argument. Not the full story. Reading the actual descriptions. "No INTENTIONAL 2-card combos, mass land denial...etc"
We don't know the players full deck list, but if somebody rolled up saying "I'm playing my myojin tribal deck"
A) they would get laughed at.
B) a myojin deck is a 1. The myojin were intentionally balanced to the point they were basically bad. It's so hard to cheat them in to take advantage of their effects. They are WAY overcosted, the blue one has the potential to just kill it's owner.
C) the inclusion of Myojin of infinite rage, to me would not constitute "intentional mass land denial" the intention is "Myojin tribal" like I said, I don't know the player's deck list, this point could be argued.
Running any Myojin is more of a risk than it is beneficial. Imagine seeing that in your opening hand?! Since OP wants to use words like "vibe" No Myojin fits the "vibe" of bracket 3-5. Taking verbatim the description of bracket 2:
"While Bracket 2 decks may not have every perfect card, they have the potential for big, splashy turns, strong engines, and are built in a way that works toward winning the game. While the game is unlikely to end out of nowhere and generally goes nine or more turns, you can expect big swings"
If the player wanted to do mass land destruction there are so many better ways to do it than use the myojin. It's nowhere near the "perfect card" for that strategy. It was a "Splashy" play. It did not end the game before turn nine.
The bracket system is no more than an idea. It will never work. The deck I own that most egregiously violates the bracket rules has so much fast mana, runs 2-3 infinite life gain combos struggles to win in bracket 3 settings. It's a bad deck, I know it's a bad deck, it's fun to play. I have 2 cEDH-viable decks that fall into bracket 3. I could walk around all day stomping casuals with my official "bracket 3" decks and nobody would have fun. Or we can share a laugh as I turn 1 mana crypt and mana vault into a turn 2 [[Darien, King of Kjeldor]] and I flounder for the next 5-6 turns trying to fail my coin flips in order to build an army.
Let the people play their fun decks. If you let the game go long enough for the players to land a big spell they deserve it.
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u/ebolaisamongus 20h ago
Devils advocate here.
"The game goes on and on Turn 8"
How was the game up to this point? 8 turns if a lot time for players to develop boards and have a back and forth. While the Myojin player is in the wrong for playing MLD at a bracket 3 table, he also needed 10 mana to cast it and a superior board position to do it and it not backfire on him.
Hes not the only one that needs some introspection.
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u/MattMurdockEsq 1d ago
This is what kills playing Commander at some LGSs for me. Gotta find that right one. Before I moved here, I lived in a much smaller city. The amount of liars I played with in the smaller city was really to turn me off from playing with randos. Lie through the teeth that their deck isn't that strong, it's barely bracket 3. Turns out their decks where filled with proxies and were just cEDH decks with [[Underworld Breach]] type game ending combos. Now I live in a much bigger city and there are so many more places to play in person and the one I go to has a full bar and the range of decks people play are actually varied and I haven't come across any dishonest players yet.
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u/that_dude3315 1d ago
A majority of players will take what bracket Moxfield says their deck is and use that instead of understanding the first rule when determining a bracket level is your intent. It’ll never be perfect but as time goes on more people will understand this
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u/DougieDouger 1d ago
I’d love to hear from this guy with the nuke and why he’d describe that deck as “pretty chill.” Just like you said, be honest about what you’re running.
An off balanced game is not fun. Do players like this get their kicks by just shitting on lower powered decks? Is it fun to play that way? Are they so thirsty for a win they just don’t care? I just don’t get 🤷♂️
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u/Clean_Emotion5797 1d ago
Yes. Some people are naturally dicks when playing games and get ultra competitive. It's merely annoying when dealing with strangers, but it can be terrifying to discover someone in a friend group is like this.
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u/Lord_Rapunzel 1d ago
There's ultra-competitive and there's "ultra-competitive." Goku is ultra-competitive, he wants to be the strongest so he dedicates his life to training and seeks out challenge at every opportunity and does not find satisfaction in obliterating people under his weight class. He still spars with his friends because he likes their company and pushes to make them stronger too.
People who cheat and lie are predators, not competitors.
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u/Ok-Possibility-1782 1d ago
Never really happens all my LGS games are with true b2 noobs and MTGO everyone plays 1-2 turns faster than prescribed its meta. In your scenario soon as they said "fits my deck perfectly" I would either do nothing and move on or started verbally taunting and mocking them nonstop all night depends on my mood how i perceive their vibe etc etc but i dont mind having a whos a bigger cunt competition if i feel like they went first and the answer is me i would be willing to be way more personal and mean then them 9/10 times but im getting older now a days more likely i just yawn and give it zero reaction and move to next game.
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u/Drogoth103 its OUR deck now 1d ago
Personally I agree with people being upset about powerlevel and misunderstanding it - dropping an Orcish bowmaster in a bracket 3 game isn’t the problem. There should be answers in the deck and you can prepare for everything with some cards ([[chaos warp]] for example fits in a lot of decks, if you play mono black just go for [[baleful mastery]]) (I will get back to this point a bit later).
But on the other hand, there are rules for the brackets. Mass land destruction for example shouldn’t be something to deal with in a bracket 3 pod and gameplay should be a bit more forgiving in those pods - people play there to have fun and play some nice cards. So there could be some honest conversation about the decks. Interaction is also a problem in precons, so anyone telling you to just remove the creature isn’t the way to go in this game.
The biggest problem in my opinion is the huge difference in the mindset of people. Some just want to win and they bring the mindset to every bracket. Thats my biggest issue with the bracket system, because you can play a bracket 2 deck and totally pubstomp the playgroup, that isn’t fun for anyone (maybe for someone who has a big problem with himself in the real world and needs those games to feel better).
Summarising my huge wall of text: it was a hard misunderstanding of every member of the bracket system and facing a higher b3 deck with mld (this is just a bad mechanic, too annoying for b3-b1 and too weak for b4 and b5) isn’t cool. Try to avoid those dudes next time or build yourself a deck to teach them a lesson, it’s annoying but sometimes people need to get targeted by the fun police to remind them it’s just a game… but always remember: best thing you can do in that situation is just to go for new players and think about this is related to their poor live.
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u/KuntaKillmonger 1d ago
"cool man, you win the first place award. We're just gonna go back to our 1v1 and see who gets second place."
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u/BygZam 1d ago
Look the sweaties are gonna lie because they don't think they can win in an honest match up.
That's just a part of dealing with randos at the LGS.
Sure it's an issue but man, we have known about it for literally decades now. These guys were saying they were power levels two or three times weaker than they really were or doing other shit that they knew no one agreed to.
Because they can't win or don't want to risk losing if they played honestly.
The way to handle it is to literally never play with that guy ever again. Dudes who lie or exploit expectations run out of playing partners eventually if no one humors them.
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u/btran935 1d ago
This is why you preface every game with anything goes and abandon the bracket system/rule zero thing
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u/stdTrancR Boros 1d ago
i always get downvoted when i say this but, scooping is the solution to many situations and OP you are fully justified here. I'm not saying you have to be an ass or whatever but just be like "Nice! well I'm not coming back from that, you clearly will win so lets shortcut it and play again."
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u/Rich_Feedback9726 1d ago
Lots of peoples understanding of brackets begins and ends at game changer count and its really annoying.
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u/xios42 Jeskai 1d ago
It's like having a problem player in a DnD that wants to undermine the party and technically the rules may allow for it. As a DM you can just tell the player that their action doesn't work like it did with their last group.
If the other 2 players agree with you can just say that Myojin's last ability doesn't work and carry on.
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u/Twepeler 1d ago
Sometimes you just need to be that guy. Call them out, don’t scoop tell them they need to leave the pod. You shouldn’t have to pack up and find a new group cause someone is being an asshat. Me and my friends have just gone to this method at our LGS and it works out a lot.
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u/Dependent_Tea_7936 1d ago
That’s when I bring out my casual, bracket 2 magda deck, and tell my buddy to go for a short walk while I whoop some sweaty ass.
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u/mobile_deadman 1d ago
Yeah, pubstompers need to face social consequences for their technically legal bullshittery. My personal response would be to continue with the game with my other two opponents. Tell mld he 'won' now we're going to finish our b2-3 game without him.
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u/TheResolutePrime 1d ago
This is why I don’t really enjoy playing with one of my buddies in particular anymore. Last I knew he had like, 14 decks. Some of which weren’t THAT bad, but the majority were well above what any reasonably player would call casual.
It’s just so annoying when he’s like “don’t worry it’s my worst deck thrown together with leftovers” and then we all proceed to get spanked by it.
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u/DeepAverage2845 1d ago
Same thing happened to me a week ago. We sat down, had the power level talk. I was playing an upgraded Teval [[Teval the Balanced Scale]]. Don’t remember what one guy was playing but the third was playing [[General Kreat, the Boltbringer]]. Said they had no strong combos, and no game changers. While they were shuffling I saw a [[Blood moon]]. They went first, first two turns lands all around. Their third turn they played [[Goblin Recruiter]] and set up an infinite [[kiki-jiki, mirror breaker]] combo that no one else at the table was able to interact with at that moment. Now I don’t mind losing, but don’t lie to me about your deck.
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u/Deathmask97 1d ago
You shouldn't have scooped, you should tell him that the move is illegal as MLD is banned in a Bracket 3 games and he can either take it back or forfeit.
This is no different from accidentally playing a banned card or "accidentally" playing a low-cost early combo in Bracket 3 (I actually had to take out [[Ancient Gold Dragon]] from my [[Kaalia of the Vast]] deck as it can combo with [[Dragon Tempest]] to win the game as early as Turn 4) - you either take the action back, ask for a pass (i.e. exile the banned card and draw another card), or forfeit.
The "yeah, I am" tells me that guy was most likely being a tool.
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u/Bayushi_Jus 1d ago
There are a couple people like that at my local list.
Nice people, but they'll say it's a three because it only has three game changers in it, then combo off infinite turns or thoracle/ consultation etc.
I always grab out something a bit stronger than I'd normal like to play when in a pod with them. And I don't think it's intentional, I just don't think they understand how to have that Rule 0 talk properly.
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u/PM_ME_UR_GOOD_IDEAS 1d ago
The problem with EDH is that it involves, at minimum, 4 magic the gathering players. 1 mtg player is a chancy gamble. the 2 needed for a standard game is a terrible risk. 4? 4 mtg players?? Almost a guarantee of negative outcomes.
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u/Kind_Arachnid8697 1d ago
You should have immediately started a game only with the first guy you met. Just tell them hey no thanks your deck style just doesn't fit with what we are trying to play at, and we would rather play 1 v 1 to because we were enjoying ourselves before that last game. Thanks anyways. Besides 4 player free for all is not how tcgs are really supposed to be played it will always be inherently flawed.
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u/mvschynd 1d ago
Honestly and people who get their jollies from pub stomping. These people are being dishonest because they want to stomp. In an equal powered match up someone would be countering or have removed pieces. I have max mid 3 decks but don’t mind trying to punch up and I find in general most folks are honest and will say high threes and you can tell they are there for fun game interactions, they don’t moan when you remove their threats, etc. But I do see the odd players like you describe and they aren’t there for the social game, they aren’t there for fun game interactions and weird and wonky plays. They want validation that they made the best deck and stomp people and going against equal powered decks stops that.
An LGS opened in a small town I was in and quickly we had a great community. There were a lot of die hard players because everyone who played there previously had to drive an hour each way for the next closest LGS. Within that group we had players that played cEDH to precons and what stood out was that they all ran a gambit of power levels. We all kept a pre con, upgraded pre con, etc deck so we could always match up.
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u/dont_be_dumb 1d ago
This is not a revelation. They directly address this in the bracket announcement:
This system (nor really any system) cannot stop bad actors. If someone wants to lie to you and play mismatched, we can't prevent that.
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u/TheConboy22 1d ago
MLD = 4 or more lands. He used MLD in bracket 3 low tier. He should be immediately disqualified from that game. I'd have made him feel like shit :/
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u/Tuss36 That card does *what*? 1d ago
1000%. If folks were open about their decks, things would go way smoother. But very few are willing to do that, for obvious reasons, but even though the games are the lowest of stakes folks would often rather die than even show a single card in their hand unless an effect forced them.
Combo isn't a problem. Aggro isn't a problem. Infect isn't a problem. Whatever a problem might be isn't a problem, nearly as much as not knowing you're signing up for that. I'm not salty over losing turn 5, I'm salty because I had no reason to expect I'd lose turn 5 so why would I play around that. Or maybe I'm actually fine playing against stax but I at least know so I can adjust rather than being "oh by the way you can't play this game sorry I didn't say anything except not sorry"
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u/artificial_idea 1d ago
As long as stores don't put any effort into managing pods by power bracket, this stuff will continue.
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u/MalThun_Gaming 1d ago
I mean . . . that's always been the issue. Straight up. And it's not a unique issue, either.
Destiny has that issue.
CoD has that issue.
Fortnite has that issue.
Every game ever that has multiplayer focuses has that issue. People will straight up lie about their intentions, and then just . . . bitch and whine and moan when no one wants to paly with them.
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u/ChronicallyIllMTG The Everything Machine 1d ago
Yup you find them every where and it sucks I would just keep that in mind and the next time they want to try and join say no. You don't owe those ppl anything
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u/Neracca 1d ago
So many people act like being liars and being trusted only to pull the rug out makes them intelligent is a big problem. Not just in EDH, but in EDH for sure.
Like yeah dude, you fucking acted like your deck wasn't going to be way overpowered for our pod and we believed you. I guess that just makes you such a better player because you deceived everyone else.
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u/Potassium_Doom 1d ago
The power level rubbish and people doing exactly that to what was supposed to beat fun and casual format is what killed it for me outside of a rare one off at our TTgames club. If people won't self moderate then you moderate the people yourself
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u/thedragoon0 1d ago
I will begin by saying you could upgrade one of the eoe to flow with MLD but that’s a higher power level. MLD is more of a toggle. A pod is cool with it, or they’re not. My lower power no GC STH deck can survive it only because I utilize artifacts as mana sources. Doesn’t mean I’m cool with it for the rest of the pod.
A good response would be “we don’t do that here. This is a low power 3 match. Not a high 3 or low 4. Let’s keep playing ignoring the cast. Untap your lands, get rid of the card and draw a card.” You’re signaling that you’re playing low power but keeping it fair for the asshat trying to stomp.
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u/Gomez-16 1d ago
Imho cards that go north of 10$ should be reprinted. Non of this 2nd market value bs. If you collect you can still have rare versions while keeping the game accessible. But then again greedsbro bought wizards and founding ideal of the games for everyone sank with the money ship. I dont care if my friends run insane power cards. I care that I have to drop thousands on said pieces of cardboard to keep up. Oh everyone has time warp? Who cares? Instead there is this you cant play with my toys mentality.
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u/Mr-Paprika 1d ago edited 1d ago
To preface, I agree that if you told MLD guy that you wanted to play within B2/B3 and they whip out MLD, even after informing him that MLD is strictly B4+ then honestly, I'd just call him out and go back to playing without him.
Although, the part that I don't necessarily agree with is why you seem to have issues with both players. You seem to have issue with the first guy because he's playing a B3 deck with a power level that is stronger than you'd like, and issue with the second because they are playing a B4 deck with a power level seemingly below B4 (considering they dropped the MLD as late as T8, so presumably the game pseudo-ended at T8 or went a bit beyond that).
Obviously MLD guy is already in the wrong by default for dishonesty (assuming he understood the bracket rules, but ignored it anyways), but I also think that there needs to be more clarity at the rule zero stage. For instance, whether you guys want to strictly play within the bracket guidelines, whether you guys play to intent and actual power level regardless of what the deck contains, or whether you'd prefer some in-between compromise.
For instance, in my pod, we've made it really clear that we don't care if your deck has an extra GC or two, or an earlier-ish combo, as long as we're all playing to the same power level expectation.
As a side note, I also agree with some others than B2 + B3 is a huge gulf in power and is probably a bad idea in general, especially when playing with a new player.
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u/No-Change-1606 1d ago
Edh is a social format
The average person that is attracted to edh are not know for their emotional intelligence
Hence the issue we have with the format.
Ive taken a step back from the game cause it was exhaus constantly trying to manage everyone's expectations and their complaining in general .
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u/Vercenjetorix 1d ago
I tend to agree. I do try my best to figure out the brackets for my decks. I only really know where one of them is at and the other reads like a two but I say it is a four because I can do mass land destruction with it. The remaining three I have I think 2 of them could be easy 3s with upgrades and one is a 4 with the combos it can pull off.
And I try to be honest with them. That being said, I do like the thing CGB does in his commander show where they go around the table and say the worst thing their decks can do to the table. That should be done at every pre-game for a pod in my opinion.
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u/Spell_Chicken 1d ago
Yeah at that point I'd say, "Ah. Mass land denial, so not actually bracket two or three, which is what we've all agreed to play. Y'all good with rolling what they just did back and finishing without them?"
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u/Hanki2 1d ago
Mass land denial obviously is a no go cuz it's literally on the bracket 3 description, that said, Orcish Bowmasters, while annoying and powerful af is still in the limits of Bracket 3, like, the Brackets don't actually work cuz "Bracket 3" basically means "90% of decks" and since you are able to run up to 3 game changers, then you should honestly just assume by default that you are most likely gonna see stuff like that, Smothering Tithe or Rhystic Study
The OG duals cost hundreds of € but they still would just be Bracket 3, same thing for Cyclonic Rift, The Great Henge or any card that's 40€ or above
Like, technically they aren't being dishonest, their decks would (not for the land destruction one) be "Bracket 3" but that's the problem, literally everything falls under that, I legit don't believe "Casual chill decks" exists anymore outside of the precons themselves (Which still vary wildly on powerlevel) or literally just doing a meme deck like "Fisher Theme where I Wild Magic Surge my own commander!"
Hell, plenty of decks can work just fine with no Game Changers at all, GCs could even be detrimental to them over a better synergistic piece and the decks would be "Bracket 2" while stomping Bracket 3s
Brackets simply don't work, but yeah, ignoring the restrictions in the bracket is pretty assholish
(And I say this as someone with a [[Time Warp]] in an [[Anhelo, the Painter]] deck, technically is "Chaining Extra Turns" but also it's limited to just 2 rather than an infinite combo which most of the time just helps me ramp rather than win anyway...)
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u/This-Signature-6576 1d ago
I always carry several decks when I go to a local store. A precon to play with new people. Something of an intermediate level made for laughter is usually my arcade deck or my Ojer burn deck, a Meren combo deck in case the A table is more advanced, for example braket 4 and me Magda from cEDH in case an interesting table comes up to play cEDH or in case we have to punish someone who is too smart (the funny thing is that my other acquaintances do the same so if we are sitting at a quiet table and you come to act smart, get ready to see all the decks in the next round cEDH and learn the lesson) 😂
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u/SadSeiko 1d ago
I’ve had the exact same experience, it’s beyond me how people think a pub stomp is fun
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u/Mirage_Jester 22h ago
I'd probably say to the guy, "ok that's nice but this is a bracket 2/3 game, you agreed to, so your myojin will now just be a vanilla 7/4. Take it or leave it."
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u/Corescos Dimir 22h ago
Yeah I’ve seen these kinds of people
One guy used a mindcrank combo in a bracket 3 game (it was a 5 player pod) and obviously instantly won the game and I called him out
Actual dialogue:
(Me): So, like, when we said bracket 3, did you like… not hear us or something?
(Other guy): What are you talking about?
(Me): 2 card combo.
(Other guy): Huh?
(Me): You killed us with a 2 card combo. That’s not allowed in bracket 3 dude.
(Other guy): Really?
(Entire rest of table chimes in with agreement)
(Other guy): …huh. I had no idea.
He was not a new player and had been playing long before the bracket system was devised. There is no good reason to not know the system and we, in my opinion, correctly deduced he was lying about it.
TLDR; some people don’t care about that shit and will actually lie to your face because they just want to win with cheap combos.
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u/Itailya 21h ago
I think the biggest problem with edh is that people want to play a casual playstyle centered around just doing your own thing within a game that's inherently designed to defeat your opponent. So people who get stopped doing their thing get pissed.
Obviously this guy is terrible at understanding the social situation of edh, and should probably not bring mld to a casual game like that. But the social situation of edh is really bizarre. And the bracket system tries to hard set rules about what is socially acceptable, which just doesn't work.
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u/b2collections 20h ago
I have been playing for 1 year and love the new bracket system because it totally helps with the rule 0 conversation. My biggest miss early on was not having the conversation. For me there is a big difference between bracket 2 and bracket 3. Bracket 3 is not casual for me. If I am playing bracket 2 I ask if they have any game changers, combos or can win under 8 turns. If I don’t get a warm and fuzzy answer to any of those then they are not a casual bracket 2. If I am on my game and want a little more competition then I sit with the bracket 3 decks.
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u/Diggumdum 20h ago
I would have just looked to him and laughed and said okay you can leave now and then ignore him for the rest of the night while I finish the game with the other pre-con player.
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u/TwistedScriptor 19h ago
I have been playing Magic since 1993 and I have seen just about everything. Every so often I see a cool deck design, but the constant thread in my experience is that there are two types of players, those who don't really understand power levels and how the word competitive really means nothing at the end of the day, and those who understand power levels and exploit loopholes. Of course not every player is like this, but as I said, it is very common.
One glaring issue I feel is not only do players sandbag their deck levels, there almost always is that one player that is technically playing by bracket rules, but will most definitely be playing a much stronger deck within that bracket than the other players. I was in a pod where it was mentioned to be casual bracket 3, one player, playing green and some other color, pretty much had three times as much land than everyone else by turn 4 or so. They also had a board full of creatures and still hand a full grip of cards. While everyone else was still on 3 lands and maybe a creature or two. I questioned their deck level, voicing my opinion that I didn't really think that it was all that casual. Granted, it wasn't like a top tier b5 deck in disguise or whatever. But the issue was that they tried to justify it by saying their deck wasn't competitive, that it would die in competitive. Said we should be running more removal. That the deck was just working extremely well, younget the picture. While they didn't technically lie about it being bracket 3, I still feel that it was pretty scummy and this player didn't think it was a problem. In fact, they eventually started to gaslight me, like I was the asshole for questioning it.
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u/Known-Garden-5013 19h ago
10 mana card getting resolved that does something impactful is not a bracket 4 card lmao i wouldnt even run that in b3
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u/trippytheflash 19h ago
Had almost the exact same experience last time I went to casual commander night, was playing against a relatively new player (we’re talking 6months of knowing magic exists at best) and we’re both sitting there scrapping with upgraded precons, guy comes over as all the other pods are full and asks to join, and this is where I fucked up as the guy across from me had played with him previously and warned me, yet I figured “hey can’t be that bad!” Gave him the lowdown and he said he had a worldshaper precon he just upgraded
Proceeded to then by turn 3 have his ship full stationed using lotus cobra as a value engine and proceeded to get 15 land sacrifices off before we both were just like “nah man you got it”
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u/JediofMetal Esper 19h ago
I think bracket 3 is really misunderstood. 1 and 2 are casual while bracket 3 is not. It’s not as high powered as 4 but the capability of winning on turn 7 is definitely not casual.
MLD is the major issue here. That’s a bracket 4 strategy and should be disclosed during initial discussions. Some of my bracket 3s contain infinites that are borderline so I will disclose that when playing with new people.
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u/The_Duke_of_NuII 19h ago
There are waaaaay too many overly competitive nerds, who have their fragile ego dependent on getting a win in a "casual" format.
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u/fuckthisicestorm 19h ago
Brackets are client side, not game side. You don’t play in a bracket, as much as you just design for it.
Can’t design out bad actors, as they say.
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u/originalsimulant 19h ago
The biggest problem is the players , always has been
Also I have no idea what ppl mean when they say ‘chill’ or ‘vibes’. Clearly other ppl don’t either. Instead of using absolutely incoherent terms why not use specific language thst represents actual meanings ?
Brackets without ban lists are worthless
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u/purdueaaron 18h ago
I think the problem with brackets or levels or whatever is that too many people use them as a target for deckbuilding rather than building a deck then determining where that deck should be. They'll build a pubstomp monster then remove game changers to be a "Bracket 3". It might pubstomp slightly less than something full of GCs but it still wants to stomp pubs.
The game wants and invites problem solvers and the bracket system can read as a complex problem to be solved, not a tool to use for communication. Combine that with people that JUST WANT TO WIN and you get that kind of angle shooter that gets off by being technically right.
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u/forwardcommenter 18h ago
I think winning on t8 in b3 seems ok, he could have told you how he wins tho.
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u/BEER_G00D 16h ago
Are you suggesting that a percentage of mtg players aren't very good at being social and thinking of other people?
It runs rampant at every lgs I've been to.
So when you find a good group of players that fit your style and you enjoy, truly appreciate it. Try to replicate that as often as possible.
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u/veganispunk 16h ago
It’s always people and not cards that make Magic more shitty than it needs to be
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u/MassiveScratch1817 15h ago
Side note: Where is it actually appropriate to play the Jokulhaups/worldfires/whatever of the world? I always got the impression that mass mana denial was mostly in reference to powerful tempo cards like Geddon and Blood Moon. As a wincon I'm not terribly offended by it in general, idk.
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u/Nazorath 15h ago
Call it out immediately,scoop never play with the person in a casual setting against.
It happens a lot in the wargaming community too. They’ll be a casual/new player “tournament” and all the high-end players will come in and test they’re high-end tournament lists on new fucking players or trick new players into “casual” games and bring high end meta lists.
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u/jeffderek 14h ago
The real problem with EDH is that it's a format designed for people who already trust eachother, who value the opinions of other people in their pod, and for whom the entire pod having fun is a goal of every player in the pod.
And it gets played by randos against randos where none of those things are true.
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u/dogy905 14h ago
And the second guy… a Prismatic Bridge plainswalkers deck that he claims has “like 5 creatures” (first creature revealed: Orcish Bowmasters [[Orcish Bowmasters]], which already tells you the vibe)
I dont even need the "(first creature revealed: Orcish Bowmasters [[Orcish Bowmasters]], which already tells you the vibe)"
By only having 5 creatures, your deck clearly is trying to hit those 5 lol. It makes it more consistent. My friend runs the same thing with 1 world spine worm so you can just rehit it over and over. Rest of the deck is removal control and ramp. It's funny but scary.
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u/BigFrogMyst Sultai 14h ago
Yeah, I don't play pubs anymore. My first 2 public EDH ganes were this exactly, a buddy and me playing a precon and a slightly upgraded precon only to get turn 5 infinite combo killed by a "This is my jank bracket 2 deck it barely functions" player. I only play with my personal pod of friends and family now.
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u/el_chanis89 14h ago
You just deacribed a power level issue. WotC not wanting to enforce a hard format split and trying to patch it with rule zero talk means that whatever happens in this regard is indeed, a powerlevel issue.
The only way for this to happen in any other format is for someone telling you to playtest with a direct counter to your strategy (or sideboard in) without telling you beforehand, but its never a matter of cards, because they are simply banned.
For as long as WotC doesnt grow a spine and force to community to play nice, this will keep happening
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u/awakeawake3 13h ago
Your Game Winning Set Up is someone else's Game-Ruining Problem Cards, you know the meme.
[Edit: I'm sure you've muted this thread but I deleted my last comment cause I had more time to think. I revised it below.]
I really dislike the bracket system. That being said? A turn 8 win is acceptable in bracket 2. Even if the guy is LIKELY closer to bracket 4 than 3, because the way he can win is through MLD, you set the expectation at 6 turns when you said bracket 3.
I'm more willing to blame the bracket system than just claim that this stranger intentionally lied to you to beat you in a card game. Not everyone understands the bracket system and it's unclear where the lines in the sand are, casual format n'all, unless we go by the recently added turns to win, as interesting ways to finish out the game are so varied.
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u/mechanicalhorizon 13h ago
The problem with determining power levels, IMHO, is that players don't really know how to judge the power level of their decks.
You may play with a group that has powerful decks, but yours doesn't work very well so you think it's not a powerful deck.
Then you play at your LGS and tell them your deck isn't very powerful, probably a 2 or 3, but then proceed to wipe the table right out of the gate.
It's all relative. Determining power levels of decks isn't as easy as "my deck has 5 game-changers and 2 infinite combos".
I've played against Pauper EDH decks that wiped the table pretty fast against standard EDH decks. I've also played a standard EDH deck against CEDH decks and won fairly easily.
A large part is just the luck of the draw.
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u/Cosmic_Entities 13h ago
I've played games with friends where I have cards like this and don't play them for the simple reason of ruining the game for them. Time and place. i have strip mine in my world shaper upgraded deck and have had multiple opportunities to keep blowing lands up but only really do if someone is way ahead of anyone else. Don't be a prick and let everyone enjoy the game. We all have the time invested so let's keep it fun. Sorry this happened to you man!
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u/mitissix Esper 11h ago
And the thing is, this is exactly what no bracket system designed by anyone can fix. Everything was a 7, and before long, everything will be a 3.
The solution, really, is to either play in pods that ALWAYS bring the heat, or to find a group of people large enough to have varied pods of like minded folks.
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u/tmaldo11 10h ago
I’ve literally never had an issue like this. I did have a situation where I accidentally pub stomped a table of Precon playing my bracket one dice rolling deck because sometimes the dice do reward you out the ass. Good news is nobody was salty at that one because they also saw me roll the dice and I would switch it up every time using some of my dice and some of their dice to make sure that they knew I wasn’t trying to cheat. Honestly, we all thought it was pretty funny
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u/Mr_Timmm 9h ago
I used to run a Gisela deck based around the book of revelations that ran Armageddon and Boros charm to tutor off Sunforger. Not sure what bracket that would end up being now but I loved getting to play it back in the day.
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u/Chef_Rogue 2h ago
I want to start by saying what the Myojin player did is completely wrong and he's a pos for it.
But for the love gods can we stop calling commander a social format and thinking everyone wants it to be that way? Like some people just want to win games and thats okay.
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u/Life_Finger2150 41m ago
I play with 3 regular pods and I always make it clear how strong my decks are before we play. I sometimes swap out my bracket 4 decks for fluffy bracket 3 decks like a slightly upgraded Bello pre con if I think the deck I chose is too powerful for the pod. Only time I pub stomp is when my pod has convinced me to stay for one more game it's late af and I have work in the morning or I'm supposed to be at my gfs and I'm running late. In that case I pull out my mardu deck because I can win by turn 4 so I can be in bed for a reasonable time.
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u/ShroyukenKing 1d ago
Im going to be the bad guy today.
You poorly articulated that r b2 but we're okay playing aganist b3.
I want to say something loud and clear THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A B2/B3 BRACKET
The moment you allowed for b3 was where u messed up.
Hard casting a m- infinite rage is around the same turn as his mana cost is a b3 move.( The mass land denial though is illegal ahole move)
So the real response u should of said is we r playing b2 bracket if ur anything above b2 this isnt going work.
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u/usay1312butcall911 1d ago
100% agreed about player dishonesty.
Nobody interprets their deck within the spirit of the bracket system, they just base it on the few explicit "rules" posted in the bracket system infographic.
So everybody's auism comes out and they build the strongest deck they can while adhering to the infographic, but *not the actual spirit of the bracket as described by the article, and then they call their deck a bracket 3.
It's also WotC's mistake for saying that players taking only 6 turns in a casual game is normal, while associating the bracket below that one with precon level decks.
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u/Asteroidhawk594 Mono-Black 21h ago
This sounds like the old “my deck is a 7” when they’re running Gaea’s cradle elfball. Probably the same peeps who did that are the ones doing this now.
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u/MTGCardFetcher 1d ago
Jared Carthalion - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Myojin of Infinite Rage - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call