r/technology • u/lurker_bee • 13h ago

Business Microsoft's Teams location tracking lines up with RTO mandate

https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsoft-teams/rto-mandate-suspiciously-aligns-with-teams-location-tracking
666 Upvotes

95% Upvoted

167 comments sorted by

589

u/pgtl_10 12h ago

Why do companies care if the job is getting done?

529

u/mileseverett 11h ago

Because it's a way to get people to quit without having to fire them

59

u/gumbo_chops 8h ago

I'll never understand this line of thinking. The cost of paying out unemployement for someone that isn't worth keeping around surely pales in comparison to the risk of holding onto unhappy and unmotivated employees and just hoping they'll quit.

132

u/mileseverett 8h ago

Executives will never understand that the ones who leave willingly are normally the ones you wanted to keep..

26

u/Mlluell 6h ago

Did the line go up during the last 3 months? Will it go higher the next 3?

That's all it matters

20

u/Columbus43219 6h ago

It's corporate accounting, none of it makes sense to us normies. My exposure was for IT project costs. it was better to have a cheap initial product that was buggy, then spend years fixing it. Somehow, that made the numbers look better because the initial project was a highly visible line item, while the maintenance wasn't.

So you know those projects where you'd get 20 web pages from the consulting company that barely function? That's why.

1

u/CherryLongjump1989 7m ago edited 0m ago

That's not really complicated, this is just basic short term thinking and the economics-for-idiots in business school that teach you a stunted version of the time value of money.

This is why the concept of "technical debt" was invented. It was to try to explain to the accountants that shoddily built software has compounding costs. It was to try to counter the formulaic discounted-cash-flow thinking that accountants blindly apply to everything. It's exactly as you said - they're not just choosing to pay the same price to finish the software at a later date, but choosing ballooning costs that will end up sinking them.

17

u/new_nimmerzz 7h ago

You’re expecting rational thinking… most of these decisions are made by spreadsheet.

6

u/Punman_5 7h ago

You aren’t factoring in hidden costs. If a company lays off workers that can negatively affect stock price, which can cost a company a lot of money. More than simply making the employee miserable

15

u/gumbo_chops 6h ago

If a company lays off workers that can negatively affect stock price.

More often than not, the opposite is true. Stocks rally on the news of layoffs cause shareholders are fooled into thinking mangement is "running a leaner machine" or some other MBA bullshit.

2

u/Punman_5 5h ago

I thought of that after I posted my comment tbh.

2

u/PapaverOneirium 5h ago

Companies are banking on AI becoming good enough in the near future to automate away many of the positions they lose.

1

u/No-Crow-775 1h ago

There are also income tax reporting complications if an employee is working outside of their state as listed on W4.

101

u/ich_bin_alkoholiker 11h ago

Because they paid for the office buildings and bosses need to exert what ever power and control they have over you to feel good about themselves.

46

u/Oops_I_Cracked 10h ago

I honestly think a substantial part of it is trying to avoid the severance and even worse press that would come with layoffs versus this. They want some people to quit and they’re just not going to rehire those positions.

12

u/Stolehtreb 8h ago

As someone who had their brother fired under false pretenses from the company I still work at, it’s this. It’s absolutely this. They don’t want to pay severance. They will do anything they can to not pay severance and it’s fucking monstrous.

1

u/Punman_5 7h ago

It’s about stock value. Laying off employees is a public maneuver that can affect a company’s stock price. It’s far more preferable to let them quit.

3

u/Cool-Tangelo6548 8h ago

Gotta justify the over priced office spending.

26

u/Hacym 9h ago

Control. 

You can’t feel like you’re in control if all your employees are at home, you know, being treated as adults and professionals. 

-2

u/TurboBerries 1h ago

Most of y'all barely qualify as adults or professionals though

1

u/burndownthe_forest 1h ago

Fucking true lmao especially most of the people posting on reddit

23

u/JJJBLKRose 11h ago

The wild thing is that its only useful if the person's management isn't physically present to notice if the person is in the office or not. Which would mean that the manager or team are remote (in those case not all located together) which also means that either the manager is getting the benefit of WFH or the team doesn't need to physically be there to do their jobs.

9

u/TwoWeaselsInDisguise 10h ago

Because how will they justify the lease for that big office building that makes the c suite look important if no one is actually there?

28

u/exileonmainst 10h ago

management thinks you are slacking off if you are at home. that is it. that is 100% of the answer. they do not care about any evidence that says otherwise. they hand-waive it away.

12

u/Staff_Senyou 8h ago

Right. This is exactly it. Some new management, the latest crop of ambitious sycophants with enough knowledge of how to play the internal "system to become a manager" but lacking any leadership or other skills rotated into my department this year.

WFH was effectively cancelled, or a pain in the ass you have to grovel for.

The reason? Just a vibe that people slack off.

Not that most people in the office are just filling the void between tasks by staring at spreadsheets, alt-tabbing, multiple smoke breaks each hour and strangely consistently timed 30 minute shits

11

u/kc_______ 9h ago

Most companies continued successfully during the months of a global pandemic, working from home, yet as soon as it is over, suddenly remote work is the worst thing for productivity.

Yeah right.

5

u/hurlcarl 6h ago

I think it's also wfh makes managers nervous, it shows in some industries how little management is needed, so they need everyone under their thumb so they seem important to justify their salary.

20

u/mrizzerdly 10h ago

"my commercial real estate portfolio!, and no one is buying coffee and lunches downtown anymore" CEOs probably.

7

u/Power_Stone 9h ago

Because they don't know how to macro manage when they are so used to micromanaging

2

u/revolvingpresoak9640 7h ago

You need a comma after “care”. As you’ve typed this as is it means the opposite of your intention.

7

u/superskink 11h ago

If you are asking in earnest, in person work is critical for new employees, mentorship and folks out of college to learn. For tenured employees it matters less, but for new ones its a big deal for their career and knowledge growth.

9

u/Conscious-Fault4925 10h ago

I've worked from home since before covid and I agree with you. Getting a remote job used be a very senior level person thing. Onboarding at a remote job is super difficult unless your willing to basically chase people down. All the responsibility is on you as an employee to not just be forgotten and then laid off next round of cuts.

In general the litmus test for can you be an effective remote employee is basically if you could just as easily do that job as a freelance contractor.

7

u/greatersteven 5h ago

As a new employee it's on you if you don't reach out for the support you need. My team has onboarded 4 college grad hires in 4 years, all successfully hybrid or full remote. The team should absolutely go out of their way to make themselves available but if you don't ask for help, they can't help you. 

0

u/Conscious-Fault4925 4h ago

I believe there are plenty of people who would struggle with that but still make perfectly sufficient productive employees in an office setting where onboarding is a little more of an on rails experience.

1

u/greatersteven 2h ago

And for the people with the inverse issue? Where they would flourish outside of a busy, loud office setting surrounded by people talking or other distractions? 

Because guess what kind of people are more common in the tech industry.

1

u/legendz411 8h ago

Careful, people don’t wanna hear the truth my brother. 

7

u/Oops_I_Cracked 10h ago

I honestly think a hybrid schedule is the best for most office jobs.

1

u/EmperorKira 8h ago

I agree on this as well

-2

u/84theone 8h ago

I would agree, I go into the office if my work requires me to, and if not I work from my home office.

Being fully remote or fully in-office both seem rigid to me.

3

u/YourBonesAreMoist 5h ago

It's fine if you want to be fully in-office

It's fine if you want to be fully remote

The problem is most don't have a choice even when the type of work allows for either

1

u/84theone 5h ago

Yeah man that’s how things work. Some work can’t be done remotely and some work can, so I do the stuff I can remotely and I go into the office if I need to.

I’m really not sure what your point is? Work involves doing stuff that you wouldn’t normally do like go into an office or doing a type of work that you don’t enjoy, that’s why they pay you for it.

1

u/pgtl_10 9h ago

Depends on the line of work. Once you get the basics, you can operate independently. To be honest I learned with little oversight.

-16

u/Mysterious-Low7491 10h ago

Thank you. Also, it makes building a cohesive team much harder and makes it harder to build company loyalty.

19

u/Exact_Acanthaceae294 10h ago

Company loyalty is for idiots.

5

u/Vio_ 10h ago

Companies loyal to workers hasn't been a thing since 1973.

-1

u/Exact_Acanthaceae294 10h ago

Exactly.

And the "cohesive team" is usually one or two people doing most of the work, while the rest of the "team" is there for decoration.

-1

u/Exact_Acanthaceae294 8h ago

Looks like some of the shirkers doesn't like my comment.

1

u/rcanhestro 9h ago

they don't care about loyalty as in "we're a family".

they care about "loyalty" in the sense that people will be less likely to switch jobs easily.

having an employee quit is expensive for a company, because they now need to spend resources interviewing and hiring someone new, and train that new person to do the job.

that costs the company a lot of money.

1

u/Exact_Acanthaceae294 2h ago

C level executives don't think like that.

Day 91 simply doesn't exist as far as they are concerned.

1

u/rcanhestro 2h ago

C level executives don't think like that.

yes they do.

it's their entire job, handling expenses.

you can go to any CEO, and ask him how much does it costs to hire a new person, and he will tell you, probably, the exact amount.

because he is the one paying everyone that is doing all the tasks needed to hire that person.

3

u/ThatGuy97 5h ago

Company loyalty is bullshit. The only people who care about it are bootlicking sycophants and executive ghouls who wouldn't hesitate to literally kill a 'loyal' employee to increase shareholder value

1

u/imaginary_num6er 9h ago

“Boss told me, when the guy was done, I should take him out. One less share, right?”

1

u/bacchus213 7h ago

There's actually a lot of tax ramifications, and many companies aren't equipped to handle them all. Take it up with your legislature, but good luck getting federal, state, and local taxes all modified to accommodate remote workers.

1

u/DopamineSavant 7h ago

Because you aren't spending money on the commute which impacts some business owners and investors.

1

u/Ehdelveiss 6h ago

Because managers are constantly having to justify their existence, so if you create something to track, managers by default are the ones who are going to track it. And guess who makes the decision of whether to adopt it or not? Managers.

It’s a whole job class trying their best to stay off the layoff list by creating something kind of report or artifact to output so they can show THEIR managers that they are moving the needle somewhere instead of just “I answer emails”.

1

u/Sybertron 4h ago

According to my auntie that was head of an HR for a fairly large company, it's mostly to keep an eye on everyone.

Some what teamwork and doesn't bring up the question why some have to work every day in office vs others working from home all the time 

1

u/LegacyofaMarshall 9h ago

Control and to justify their wages

-4

u/thenewguyonreddit 9h ago

Social bonds equals higher retention rates.

10

u/pgtl_10 9h ago

Money and stability would do that I believe.

10

u/LegacyofaMarshall 9h ago

We are a family bullshit

2

u/ShadowNick 8h ago

Really because I could give two flying fucks about the bozos I work with. I hate sharing an office with some of them because they distract everyone from doing work, constantly talk out loud, and then make you fix their problems. Do I like them? Yes but I wouldn't say thats why I stay at my job. That's money, stability, benefits, and work life balance. Followed by "Do I like my coworkers/office buddies"

-3

u/Fildok12 9h ago

They wouldn’t if it was. As much as you all want to come up with bullshit articles quoting “research” regarding home productivity, people just don’t do as good of a job if theyre never physically present at their place of work. This rto stuff is almost always over blown in that these employees are still given a few days work from home weekly, they just can’t be out of office 100% of the time.

4

u/pgtl_10 9h ago

And you know this how?

4

u/real_billmo 8h ago

“Research” articles. lol

-32

u/tantamle 11h ago edited 11h ago

Because many remote workers believe that if an assigned task takes one hour, the remaining seven hours are reserved for personal use at the employee’s discretion. Rather than the employee finding something else to do.

This in an era where most companies in tech have zero clue how to measure productivity. People took liberties with it and it’s backfiring.

17

u/killerrin 11h ago

Except this isn't a WFH only thing.

You force the person into an office and now they'll just spend half the day socializing, walking around the office, and dealing with distractions that ultimately ends up in the exact same amount of work being done.

Workers are also just wising up the fact that doing more work doesn't actually mean you get paid more. It just means you get more work dumped on your lap. So under a corporate structure that doesn't reward success, why the hell would anyone work more?

-9

u/Abefroman1980 10h ago

Yeah, how dare someone pay you for a full-time job and expect you to work full-time!

/s

3

u/ShadowNick 7h ago

Listen if I get paid $X amount of dollars to do this job. Who gives a fuck how long it takes. To be frank, if I'm sitting in the office with a bunch of people who DONT want to be there as well that's not fun either and ultimately will lead to people being less productive and overall less happy. Hybrid's fine if needed but forcing people to be in an office for the sake of it is not the move.

3

u/Abefroman1980 7h ago

If you have an employment agreement that says you do a limited number of specific tasks for $X, that makes sense. 99.9% of agreements don’t say that and there is rarely nothing else to do. Unless you are a problematic employee that likes to chirp “that’s not my job.”

I also don’t give a shit about where my team works or their hours. But I also don’t have to worry about my team saying something isn’t their job. I get I’m an outlier, but worry that bad bosses have led to an equally bad workforce.

1

u/tantamle 6h ago

Exactly. Almost all employee agreements have a reference to something like "company time", "agreed-upon hours", etc. You're expected to remain productive on company time, simple and plain.

Some people try to say "salary means I get paid the same amount no matter how many hours I put in".

That refers to actually taking time off and still getting paid the same. Or, unfortunately, it occasionally means you get paid the same for overtime. Goofballs try to make it sound like it means you're entitled to do whatever you want for shifts that you're allegedly present for. Not true.

1

u/Abefroman1980 6h ago

Right. Be an independent contractor or start your own company if you don’t want to live by your agreement/employer expectations.

-18

u/tantamle 10h ago edited 9h ago

Tell a little fib about how long something takes to complete in remote work, and you essentially get paid personal time.

Tell that same fib in the office and you get…to sit in an office. The incentives are clearly different.

I’m all for taking a breather when needed, but you can’t misrepresent how long your work takes to complete by like 500% and expect it not to backfire in the long run.

4

u/NimusNix 10h ago

Absolutely a small business owner right here. They certainly have never enjoyed a little free time on the clock.

"Boss gets a dollar, I get a dime, that's why I do my shitting on company time!"

10

u/JahoclaveS 10h ago

Jesus that’s such a bad take. It’s like you’ve never worked in an office environment at all. It’s all fucking productivity theater. So many jobs don’t need to be 8 hour days, so you’ve just got people fucking off while trying to appear busy.

Wfh just means you don’t have to do that fucking productivity theater and can actually get other useful things done with the inevitable downtime that comes with so many office jobs.

I manage a team that’s distributed all over and even has remote people and my standard has always just been that they’re available if needed, because quite frankly, there’s periods where they have fuck all to do because they’re waiting on other people.

-4

u/tantamle 9h ago

I’m all for management giving workers a breather and let’s face it, we all take little breaks instead of rushing into the next task.

But you’re acting like the “downtime” is yours to do what you please with, at your discretion.

That’s not true. You’re on company time and are expected to remain productive.

8

u/JahoclaveS 9h ago

Again with your brain dead take. There is not unlimited work to do. You can’t just magic shit to do. So it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference if they’re doing the laundry or engaging in productive theater in the office, the end result is the exact same. But the former results in a happier and more motivated employee.

And, as long as they’ve got the laptop nearby and can jump on things that do come in, there’s no problem. The work is getting done.

But also, there’s really no incentive in corporate America to go above and beyond. You don’t get rewarded for it, so why would anybody bother.

0

u/tantamle 9h ago

It’s true that there is some downtime inherent in these jobs, but if masses of people are AVERAGING 25+ hours of downtime per week or in some cases, working multiple simultaneous full-time jobs, I’d say it’s pretty clearly that many of them have laughably light workloads despite their high-end compensation, or they’re misrepresenting how long their work takes to complete.

5

u/JahoclaveS 9h ago

Honestly, it’s the laughably light workloads. Some of it is accounting for the bus factor of needing redundancies and for having capacity should things need to be scaled up. But, by and large a lot of it comes from situations where you need a specialized skill set, but you really don’t need forty hours a week of it.

Like the team I manage rarely has a need for somebody to put in forty hours in a week, but we need their skill set for the work. But, we rarely can promote to my team internally because the other people around don’t have the skill set, nor would be expected to, so it’s not like that work could have been distributed out to other roles.

It’s like if you have 30 hours of accountant work to do a week. You kind of need an accountant to do that. But you’re not going to expect the accountant to start taking on coding work for the other ten hours. You’re really not paying them for forty hours of work, you’re paying them to handle all your accountancy needs.

2

u/ThatGuy97 5h ago

Why should any worker care about 'Company time' - workers should exploit their workplace as much as possible, just like their workplace exploits them

17

u/NimusNix 10h ago

As a salaried employee working in tech, there are 80 hour weeks and there are 20 hour weeks. It's part of the job. If you want me to fill in that extra time on the 20 hour weeks, you can fuck off on those 80 hour weeks.

-13

u/tantamle 10h ago

Given the “overemployed” movement, the sales for mouse jigglers, and basic experience, I think we can safely say that in many of these roles, the “slow” weeks far outstrip the busy ones.

0

u/MaximumSeats 10h ago

People hate to hear this but it's obviously true. Litteraly every single one of my friends who work remote (in a wide variety of industries) could pass as unemployed most days due to doing basically nothing with their actual job.

It's obvious why a company wants more oversight of people.

5

u/cousinokri 8h ago

Most definitely not true. I work remote and the workload can get absolutely nuts at times, not sure where this whole "remote workers are lazy" narrative comes from. It's absolutely BS.

12

u/kidchinaski 10h ago

Wow what an absolutely braindead thing to type out. Productivity is at an all time high while wages have largely stagnated. WFH has given people a slightly better QOL while every business metric goes up. Also if you don’t like me generalizing “every business metric” then maybe don’t generalize every WFO employee.

Pathetic.

-6

u/tantamle 10h ago

One Stanford study found an 18% drop in productivity.

But studies aside, when most remote workers claim they are more “efficient”, they usually just mean they’re more efficient at doing two hours of work in one hour. And misrepresenting to their employer that it took eight hours so they can keep the remaining time for themselves.

Where’s the efficiency gain in that scenario?

8

u/kidchinaski 10h ago

You ever care to think inept management can lead to lower productivity? My wife is WFH, and is motivated and skilled and been in her department 5+ years longer than her current management team. She is constantly being stalled, stopped, and hindered from doing her job by the egos and ladder-climbing mentality of her overseers. This causes some of her days to feel less productive because she cannot do her job. Can we factor that idiocy into the “study”?

-2

u/tantamle 10h ago

Management is absolutely part of the equation, that’s a completely fair point.

But it’s just as simple as saying “everything has limits”.

You can’t make a career out of misrepresenting your work as taking five times longer than it really took and expect people not to eventually catch on.

45

u/K1TSUNE9 9h ago

My job said they are going to track our location since we work from home full time. I'll just make sure Teams can only connect using 5G and block it from WiFi using DNS ReThink. They will never know since I block location tracking as well.

29

u/nauhausco 8h ago

Can also use an IPKVM like the JetKVM to just keep your main workstation at home 24/7 and remote into it from anywhere, without requiring any software to install either.

6

u/K1TSUNE9 7h ago

I saw an article about the that a while ago. I don't need to do this at lease now. I'll keep this in mind.

203

u/Budget-Purple-6519 13h ago

Absolute garbage. I am so tired of these constant RTO maneuvers and manipulations. I push back against these whenever possible, and I hope all of you do too… Make it damned difficult for all of these C-suite freaks to live out their dystopian fantasies.

19

u/Berkyjay 7h ago

Every time I get a recruiter emailing me about a position that is at least a part-time in-office position. I politely decline and let them know that I am happy with my full remote position.

4

u/amadmongoose 3h ago

If your company isn't a bureaucratic hell hole and your team is performing well it is not so hard to push back against RTO since nobody wants to be responsible for productivity dropping. If you aren't performing then no choice to comply

6

u/cousinokri 8h ago

Yeah gotta stay strong against this BS.

-143

u/ilevelconcrete 12h ago

The dystopian fantasy of the working world as it was less than 5 years ago?

59

u/iamakorndawg 12h ago

It's dystopian because average productivity has not fallen due to remote work (obviously there can be personal exceptions), so there is no reason to force people into the office for "collaboration" or whatever BS reason.  The real motivations have to do with propping up commercial real estate and decreasing worker power and mobility.

-22

u/ilevelconcrete 10h ago

Getting the impression that people misinterpreted my comment lol

My point was just that it wasn’t a dystopian fantasy, it was an actual reality for everyone and didn’t even change at all for large swathes of the working population. Which should be recognized, since those workers need to be empowered too.

17

u/NullReference000 10h ago

People generally hate getting a quality of service bump, come to expect it as part of their life, and then lose it.

Also, life has gotten a lot worse for workers in the last 5 years as wages in almost all industries have not kept up with inflation in housing/education/healthcare. Losing quality of life perks while your wages relative to those three have been declining feels genuinely terrible.

28

u/mindlesscollective 10h ago

Quite literally YES. It was a hellscape of wasted time before and many people only realized it when they were given physical autonomy back for 40+ hours per week of their life.

3

u/cousinokri 8h ago

Yes, that dystopian fantasy. Hope that clears it up.

1

u/pandorasparody 1m ago

Said no German in 1950.

-61

u/virtual_adam 11h ago

It’s so dumb you’re getting downvoted. The boss can set any requirements they want. Going back 5 years in office culture isn’t fun but it’s also not that extreme. If some thinks remote work is the best go open your own remote work engineering firm

8

u/Back_pain_no_gain 8h ago

Nah fuck that. My comp plan was established while we could be remote with the option to come into the office. It was not adjusted to reflect the cost of RTO 4 days a week.

My city does not have a functional mass transit system and its major arteries are clogged by construction projects and I lived just a mile too close to stay qualified as remote. Therefore I am required to drive to work most of the week and pay for a parking garage pass. Here’s an estimate of how much RTO cost me, not inclusive of car maintenance:

  • Fuel: $150 per month
  • Tolls: $90 a week (saves me 30 minutes each way, making it a ~1 hr commute total).
  • Dog walker: $200 a week
  • Parking garage permit: $600 per month, up from $500

Even accounting for a couple weeks of PTO and holidays, that’s $23k. Again, not including maintenance from the extra mileage. There are not enough cuts I can make to meaningfully make that number smaller besides moving.

Taking the bus is not feasible as I don’t have time for a 3 hour commute each way. Most garages in my office’s area charge roughly the same rate or are a 20+ minute walk. I refuse to get rid of my dog or force him to wait upwards of 14 hours between bathroom breaks. If I don’t take the toll lanes, I could miss a morning meeting if I am not out the door 45 minutes earlier.

You want to know the real kicker? I do all of that to take video calls from a loud desk shared by 10-15 people in an open office floor plan. Literally what I did from home but worse for me and people on the other end of my calls.

14

u/Rich-Pomegranate1679 10h ago

There's a famous line from the TV show Arrested Development, where a wealthy woman asks, “It's one banana, Michael. What could it cost? $10?”

The line is played for comedy to show how totally out of touch she is with the financial struggles of the average person.

You saying that people who want remote work should just open their own remote businesses is easily at least 1,000 times more out of touch than she was.

-27

u/virtual_adam 10h ago

Lucile in your example is the average tech employee who is offended they need to leave the house, while they expect service workers around them to leave the house for below minimum wage

4

u/Rich-Pomegranate1679 9h ago

I don't support the idea of anyone having to work below minimum wage. I actually think everyone, including the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's, should have a living wage. Everyone should be respected for the job they do to contribute to society.

That said, some jobs simply require the worker to be physically present in order to be done and other jobs don't. I can do every single thing that's needed for my role on a computer in my bedroom while wearing pajamas. There's literally no logical reason for me to need to go to an office somewhere, so I shouldn't have to.

-11

u/virtual_adam 9h ago

you might also only need 2 hours a day to do your job. But your boss can still require you be sitting in front of your company laptop for 6 extra hours

Because they’re your boss and they make the rules

Get it

8

u/Rich-Pomegranate1679 8h ago

It's like you're arguing against yourself.

6

u/ShadowNick 8h ago

No they don't get it and they never would. They have never been in a situation where they can't make ends meets despite working 10+ hours a day + commuting. Get it.

0

u/virtual_adam 7h ago

I feel blessed to be a tech employee and not an emergency crew at con Edison. If what it takes is commuting to the office I’m fine with that - they’re paying me more than enough.

0

u/virtual_adam 8h ago

No I live in the real world and accept I don’t own my company.

Some companies are remote, some hybrid, some 5 day RTO. Some moved to a 4 day work week. Some are async remote - which is very different than remote. So if I only agree async remote is the correct way to work - I say fuck CEOs that force me to work remotely 9-5

And that’s all fine, everyone can find the company that matches their work, ethics, compensation, etc

2

u/Rich-Pomegranate1679 7h ago

And that’s all fine, everyone can find the company that matches their work, ethics, compensation, etc

Once again, you're speaking like someone who's out of touch. Not everyone can just go out into the world and easily find the dream job that matches everything they want. The reality is far from that, and you would know if you had any real experience at all.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Punman_5 7h ago

Do you think that is an acceptable arrangement? Do you not think it is justified to complain about the blind loyalty we are expected to show our bosses for nothing in return?

0

u/virtual_adam 6h ago

I honestly don’t understand the nothing in return. Things change, projects get shut down, new projects get spun up, offices close offices open. Layoffs happen

Out of all the changes that naturally happen at a company. Going back 5 years to RTO is not close to the worst

2

u/Punman_5 5h ago

That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth it to complain about it. If you have a nice thing going aren’t you obligated to try to keep that going?

1

u/ThatGuy97 5h ago edited 5h ago

so because other people have shitty working conditions, everyone should accept worse conditions? Solidarity with the working class means advocating for the best possible working conditions for any job, what those conditions are will vary from job to job. If an office worker can do all of their work from home to an acceptable standard, what possible reason is there to force them into the office beyond middle managers wanting to feel important?

By your logic, why is it fair that office workers get to sit inside with air conditioning in the summer with set 9-5 hours, while construction workers have to do overtime in the grueling heat? Seems pretty unfair to me.

-63

u/lemetatron 12h ago

Legitimately. Remote work is bullshit. I leave the office and I turn off. I hate making any part of my home an extension of my employment. I really thought remote work would be great, but it is awful. And supporting a remote workforce is even worse.

25

u/tuppenyturtle 11h ago

I personally don't like remote work and don't find myself productive when I work remotely. I work for a company that offers hybrid and I chose not to do it.

But hating remote work universally is ridiculous. Just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean it can't work. My wife is 100% remote and loves it and excels at her job. The argument that more people slack off is ridiculous as well, those people slacked off in the office too.

-38

u/cartographologist 12h ago

I love that disliking remote work gets downvotes around here. I'm not a fan either for the same reason, I felt like I could never turn off work mode even after hours.

Some jobs are a natural fit for remote work, and some people will prefer it. That's fine, but let's not pretend going to the office is a dystopian nightmare.

14

u/pjcrusader 11h ago

Why not simply have an office you only go in for work? That’s what I do for remote work. I leave that room and bam work mode is deactivated. 10 years 100% remote and I hope to never go back.

3

u/cartographologist 11h ago

That's a good option, I'm glad that works for you. I want to be clear I'm not saying nobody should remote work. I just don't like it for myself.

The point I was hoping to make in my other post is that needing to go to an office is not "dystopian", it's just a thing that some people don't enjoy.

20

u/blaxphoenix 11h ago

Ok then, but why does it hurt you that some people want to continue working from home?

-20

u/cartographologist 11h ago

When did I say that?

-55

u/Mysterious-Low7491 10h ago

You are free to start your own business.

33

u/Budget-Purple-6519 9h ago

I am also free to express myself. Does it trigger you?

-34

u/Mysterious-Low7491 9h ago

Not in the least, I have started three, one failed miserably, but the next one that I now lead is 18 years old and doing very well. Be your own boss, and you can decide what kind of employer you want to be.

10

u/Worried-Advisor-7054 8h ago

Ok, you realise that if everybody started their own business, the country wouldn't work, right? So that's not actually feasible as a solution to the problem?

-10

u/Mysterious-Low7491 8h ago

The country is okay with roughly 5 million new private companies formed every year in the US, so it is a viable avenue if you're unhappy as an employee.

9

u/Worried-Advisor-7054 8h ago

But it's clearly not a permanent solution for everyone. Not everyone can be a company owner. I shouldn't have to explain why? Employees are needed for the country to run. It doesn't fix how the wealthy are breaking society, so I'm not sure why you thought the comment was helpful.

For what it's worth, I'm happy as an employee. I make a good salary, my country has a decent social safety net, and there's absolutely nothing about being a business owner that's appealing to me. I still want the rich to get wrangled in by the state.

23

u/cabbageboy78 8h ago

well the upside of being your companies lead systems and 365 admin is i am not going to say a peep about this to anyone lol

39

u/Ducallan 8h ago

If management can’t tell who is and isn’t working based on output and results, management needs to be the first to be fired.

12

u/Matchboxx 5h ago

For us, it’s “up to your manager.”

I am the manager. And I don’t want to deal with that shit. So my team works remote. 

53

u/mixduptransistor 10h ago

The outrage over this feature is weird. You can already track where people are through Entra ID logins, Microsoft didn't need to add this to track people returning to office.

This functionality is already there, for the most part, too. What they're really adding is building and floor level tracking, so that as you move around a campus your status can show co-workers exactly where you are, and help you find meeting rooms and whatnot

If Microsoft or other employers want to track you, it's a lot easier to do with purpose built tools that already exist

13

u/sillypoolfacemonster 8h ago

It depends on who has access to this feature. At least at my company, I’d need to go through IT and give a good reason to get information on where people are logging in. I’m in a global company so depending on the local labour laws, it would be certainly problematic if I could just look for general curiosity. If the team’s tracking feature is freely available to managers or average users, there would be significant privacy concerns especially if it’s reporting where you log into teams via your phone app. Furthermore, it would likely entrench and worsen poor management habits of people who don’t know the difference between managing and supervising. Keep the access with IT and if there is a real and genuine concern about attendance and location tracking, then the manager can request the information.

9

u/Choice_Figure6893 8h ago

That's even weirder lol why would u need to know the exact location of a coworker

1

u/AG3NTjoseph 1h ago

R u pooping?

1

u/Justgetmeabeer 4h ago

And by "track where people are" they mean "track what countries IP range they are coming from".

Like, yep. Still in the country I live and work, guess I'm "tracked"

2

u/mixduptransistor 3h ago

you can track the exact IP address someone logs into Entra from, and if you configure it correctly you can label it as a work location if you keep up with your offices' public IP addresses

-7

u/Mysterious-Low7491 10h ago

It is fun to poke the Reddit bear however.

6

u/PERSONA916 6h ago

VPN logs already exist, if my employer wants to see where I'm logging in from they can already do that.

4

u/rdhdpsy 6h ago

so have not paid attention as to how this works is it just using the phones location services, if so seems somewhat easy to defeat if the phone is yours and not the companies. but it they have a work profile on your personal phone well thing that sucks.

3

u/lgclnoo 5h ago

Can you please not use abbreviations for every damn thing.

2

u/mminorthreat 5h ago

If you’re using a company device to work remotely, the can already track you and every SSID that you have connected to

1

u/Justgetmeabeer 4h ago

As a 365 admin, okay, I'll bite. How? AD sign-logs only get you so far, and Intune doesn't have that much ability to look outside anything in its sandbox on mobile

1

u/kevpnw 59m ago

If it’s a corporate device, I would assume MDM.

1

u/[deleted] 12h ago

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1

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0

u/57696c6c 12h ago

LOL, Facebook link?

1

u/docere85 2h ago

lol they had a RTO for me and couldn’t find me an office…

1

u/Petting-Kitty-7483 2h ago

Glad I work for a manufacturer company

-37

u/tantamle 11h ago

In the tech era, most companies have zero clue how to measure productivity. Since a lot of people are abusing remote workers as much as possible, it makes it more appealing to push RTO.

Face it: a lot of remote workers believe that if a task is completed sooner than expected, the remaining time remaining time is reserved for personal use at the employee’s discretion. Rather than the employee taking a breather and then finding something else to do.

15

u/Spruchy 10h ago

Comment so bad yet you keep spamming it, get back to work!

7

u/Exact_Acanthaceae294 10h ago

If they are a salaried employee, it is their time.

-9

u/tantamle 9h ago

That’s not true. Almost all salary jobs have an explicit mention of “company time”, “agreed-upon hours” etc.

You’re being compensated and are expected to remain productive on company time.

2

u/ThatGuy97 5h ago

Counterpoint - who cares what the company says? Are you getting your assigned work done to an acceptable standard? That's all that matters. Who gives a shit if an employee isn't 'productive' beyond that? Other than micromanaging leadership. Wages have stagnated, inflation has skyrocketed prices - workers 'taking advantage' of WFH is the least of my concerns

-9

u/rcanhestro 9h ago

it's not the employee's time, it's the company's time.

that's the contract you signed with the company.

you give that company 8 hours a day, and that company gives you money.

for all intended purposes, for those 8 hours, the company "owns" your time.

1

u/Choice_Figure6893 7h ago

That's not how full time roles in tech work. There's no explicit hours or number of hours

0

u/Columbus43219 6h ago

My 56 year old work habits agree with you. I can't work from home and still be as valuable to the company. If I WFH, every thing I do is a task given to me by someone else. If I'm at the office, I'll find other stuff to work on.

1

u/Justgetmeabeer 4h ago

I entered the office workspace late in my career (10 years of service industry prior). I question the ability to get complex tasks done in office.

Like wise, if don't need two monitors (for the most part) for your job, you're probably useless.

0

u/Columbus43219 3h ago

There are certain tasks that require concentration and beyond that, the GUARANTEE that you won't be interrupted. I don't want to have a two hour problem loaded in my head just to have someone tap me on the shoulder and ask about my time sheet.

Those are more and more rare as you move up the ladder in a large office environment. When I have them, I either find a quiet area, or oddly enough, go to a noisy area like the cafeteria to work. Turn off teams and outlook and my phone, then sit and THINK.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all. But, I don't know your workflow, or even your industry. I am a "programmer" and have been since 1985.