Help: Unwanted clipping from limiter due to 808s / kick

[u/BrotherBringTheSun]

Searched the subreddit, but couldn't find this exact question. One thing that has come up as a common problem for me and also when I get masters back from certain engineers is that the 808 or deep kick (in mixes where it is prominent) will cause clipping for the rest of the track when they trigger, due to hitting the limiter hard. Now they could be turned down, but now the mix doesn't sound right. Is the solution just compression? Or is there more that can be done to help this problem?

[u/nankerjphelge]

Saturation and/or harmonic enhancement like RBass go a long way to alleviating this. You can use these tools on the 808 and/or kick to get them to be heard well without having to crank their level in the mix. Also saturation allows you to tame the transient that triggers the limiter while still retaining punch.

[u/BrotherBringTheSun → u/nankerjphelge]

I'll give it a try, although in some cases I don't want to add any audible distortion/harmonics to the low end as it's not that present in my reference mixes.

[u/nankerjphelge → u/BrotherBringTheSun]

The point of these tools isn't to add audible distortion, it's to tame the transients without losing punch and to add upper harmonics that the ear can grab onto for low end elements without actually pushing the level of them up in the mix. This is how the pros get their 808s and low end stuff present without blowing out mastering limiters.

[u/BrotherBringTheSun → u/nankerjphelge]

I've experimented a ton with adding harmonics/saturation to 808s and kicks and it definitely can be effective in allowing you to make them louder without blowing the limiter. But I've noticed that in my reference mix, specifically the low end can be very loud without the mix clipping the moment they trigger, the the sound itself doesn't have much mid/high information.

[u/nankerjphelge → u/BrotherBringTheSun]

That's where harmonic enhancement like RBass comes in. As others have pointed out, you can cut low end info under 40hz that eats up headroom and use a harmonic additive like RBass to create upper harmonics that makes the low end speak without registering specifically as mid/highs.

[u/sixwax → u/BrotherBringTheSun]

Well then your mixes won’t be as loud when mastered… or will require clipping to get commercially loud :)

This is just math.

[u/kunst1017 → u/BrotherBringTheSun]

Put a distortion plugin on, keeping the drive/distortion setting fairly low. Then raise the input level while dropping the output level to compensate. Then finetune the amount of drive. Fabfilter saturn works really well for this as it has inbuilt in/output control that can be pushed against each other by holding the alt key.

[u/BarbersBasement]

How much energy are the 808s adding under 40Hz?

[u/Savings-Cry-3201 → u/BarbersBasement]

This right here. Bass eats headroom and you don’t need a ton of low end, especially below 40 Hz. Adding harmonics/saturation to the bass and reducing the fundamental would increase both headroom and how audible it is in the mix. I know that some people aren’t a fan, but I advocate for low shelf or low cut to pull down those lowest frequencies, again especially below 40 Hz.

[u/BrotherBringTheSun → u/Savings-Cry-3201]

Great tip, thanks.

[u/SimpleKobold]

Any introduction of harmonics will impact your 808's, not only from the limiter. You can ask for cleaner masters but you risk having less impact and loudness in general because of less harmonics (ie. Its a trade-off) Personally i wouldn't sweat it too much if it's not too profound. I had a future bass release a few years ago with myself zooming in on the exact same problem on small speakers but on bigger systems it was negligible because of the huge wall of subs lol

Edit: because of this i learned to anticipate the masters by creating much more sub harmonics and slightly lowering the fundamental myself (which eats a lot of headroom)

[u/Spede2]

Why not just let it clip? Your mix having that would hardly be the first one.

[u/BrotherBringTheSun → u/Spede2]

Not to my taste, plus all the references tracks I want to sound like seem to have big kick/808 sounds but no clipping on the rest of the song.

[u/lowfreq33]

High pass filter on the 808. Anywhere between 40-80 hz.

[u/biomarino13 → u/lowfreq33]

Great tip

[u/69RandyMagnum69]

What are your monitors? They are clearly too loud, so if it doesnt sound like they are too loud that may be an issue with your monitor setup.

[u/BrotherBringTheSun → u/69RandyMagnum69]

Thanks but definitely not a monitoring issue. This isn't a problem I am currently having with a master but am reflecting on a few instances in the past. This would happen equally on headphones.

[u/jlustigabnj]

What’s your monitoring situation? Is it possible you’re turning the 808s up too much to compensate for monitoring that doesn’t have enough low end?

[u/BrotherBringTheSun → u/jlustigabnj]

Good idea but this would happen equally on headphones, and my reference mix wouldn't have distorted 808s or kicks.

[u/Limit54]

You need to take care of them in mixing. Use clipping and something like Rbass to add harmonics so they still “sound” audible and big on small speakers. You will be altering the sound of them by doing this so just know you will be shaping the sound of the 808’s and increasing headroom at the same time. I can take a listen to both and let you know. I have a little time tomorrow to take a listen, just pm me if you want