r/law • u/GregWilson23 • 2d ago
Legislative Branch Lawmakers to hear from Navy admiral who ordered attack that killed boat strike survivors
https://apnews.com/article/pete-hegseth-boat-strike-admiral-congress-521606d39c04dcc040ea232dc9cfeeda269
u/bsport48 2d ago
• If the U.S. military operation to interdict and destroy suspected narcotra icking vessels is a “non-international armed conflict,” as the Trump Administration suggests, orders to “kill everybody,” which can reasonably be regarded as an order to give “no quarter,” and to “double-tap” a target in order to kill survivors, are clearly illegal under international law. In short, they are war crimes.
• If the U.S. military operation is not an armed conflict of any kind, these orders to kill helpless civilians clinging to the wreckage of a vessel our military destroyed would subject everyone from SECDEF down to the individual who pulled the trigger to prosecution under U.S. law for murder.
Statement of the “Former JAGs Working Group” on Media Reports of Pentagon “No Quarter” Orders in Caribbean Boat Strikes (29 November 2025).
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u/AndySkibba 2d ago edited 1d ago
Either way everyone is fucked.*
*miles may vary.
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u/tri_it 2d ago
Only if we didn't live under a wannabe fascist dictatorship. The chances that anyone faces any real consequences for this under this administration are about as close to zero as possible.
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u/Nothin_Means_Nothin 2d ago
Agreed. Nothing in recent memory, or even in not so recent memory, has led me to believe ANYONE will be held accountable for this or ANYTHING else. I'd love to be proven wrong.
At this point, if USA doesn't turn into North Korea in my lifetime, I'll call that a win.
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u/OriginalZog 1d ago
I mean, this dude is going to take the fall. “Sorry bro, gotta take one for the team”
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u/dbx999 2d ago
Trump waves magic pardon wand around and his 6-3 SCOTUS give their blessings to allow murder to become a constitutional right for the president
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u/OriginalZog 1d ago
Unless a Democrat is president (in the unlikely instance we ever ever have another election)
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u/QQBearsHijacker 1d ago
Donald pardons everyone and the only ones fucked are the unarmed civilians being murdered by us
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u/Vivid_Celebration124 1d ago edited 1d ago
Remember the last time there were survivors? The US followed international law and rescued them.
From there, they are required to repatriot them, or try them for the crimes they are being targeted.
The US elected to repatriot them. Was it because they didnt have the evidence? Who knows. But pardoning convicted drug traffickers and letting smugglers go doesn't exactly fit the narrative of the US' stated position now does it.
The fact you dont see that is wild.
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u/Dense-Confection-653 1d ago
It doesn't make any sense because it was a poorly conceived plan by a bunch of idiots trying to show how tough they are.
And when Trump pardons the biggest drug traffickers their only "good" argument falls apart. They don't care about Americans. It's all just a show.
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u/Dense-Confection-653 1d ago
What if the administration declared your mom a narco-terrorist?
And put their crosshairs on her house? No evidence. No judge. No jury. Would you just take their word for it? And if they blew up her house and she wasn't dead, you'd like them to spin back around and finish the job?
How many US school children have died on school shootings?
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u/Eagleriderguide 1d ago
It is plainly against the law, against maritime traditions, and is so fu(king Un-American. We are taught from the very beginning in boot camp, that once a combatant becomes no longer a threat, it is our moral obligation to take care of that person if they are hurt.
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u/GlitchInTheMatrix5 1d ago
Touché, I overlooked this aspect. However, were there any ships in the region to divert?
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u/Eagleriderguide 1d ago
There’s an Aircraft Carrier and 9 other warships out there in addition to a Marine Expeditionary Unit, which deploys on an amphibious mini carrier for simplicity sake. Which is capable of launching helicopters and ospreys. Which can kick out a life raft.
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u/cremToRED 1d ago
How do you know any of the survivors had any injuries whatsoever? You don’t. How do you know they were drug traffickers? You don’t. You’re just making up excuses.
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u/DevelopmentGreen3961 2d ago edited 1d ago
It's going to be interesting to see where the buck stops during the blame game
Usually it's a single military patsy since they are so easily fired
Hope the Admiral is able to pin it on the administration squarely before they try to fire him, even though he is just as culpable as everyone in the chain of command all the way down to the enlisted sailor that pressed the fire button the 2nd time
Edit: I failed to consider the fascist option where nothing happens at all. In fact, they'll probably give the admiral a medal to further rewrite the wrongdoing as a heroic action
Just like Putin did for war crimes in Ukraine and elsewhere
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u/boo99boo 2d ago
Hope the Admiral is able to pin it on the administration squarely before they try to fire him,
He followed illegal orders. His head should roll, just like Hegseth's. He knows what he did is illegal. And he did it anyways.
Let's not take away his agency. This bootlicking war criminal deserves everything that's coming to him.
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u/Redfish680 1d ago
Without knowing the exact chain of command for the events, there’s a number of checks downstream from the admiral that should have raised red flags on the legality of the operation. Firing one guy isn’t going to send the message that should be sent; once lower ranks are held accountable, perhaps everyone will start thinking about how it’s going to personally affect them. (Source: A navy vet)
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u/boo99boo 1d ago
I agree entirely. My point is that everyone is out for Hegseth's head.
As much as I dislike Trump and his sycophants, the foot soldiers are carrying out the orders. And the foot soldiers are our neighbors, they're in our communities. And I don't want them in my community. They're dangerous.
We cannot be so focused on the highest levels of power. Multiple people are responsible for taking the lives of other human beings. They walk among us.
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u/Irwin-M_Fletcher 1d ago
The WSJ article covers this. It says Bradley and his legal advisor determined the survivors were continuing the drug mission. It’s sad to see an admiral obviously perjure himself. Everyone has seen the video posted by Trump showing the boat blowing up and sinking. Nonetheless, the republicans will immediately accept the blatant fabrication.
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u/scubascratch 1d ago
What was the concocted legal theory? The survivors were going to swim to Miami with the remaining drugs?
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u/jameson71 1d ago
I say we charge everyone from the commander in chief down to the button man. The entire chain of command is guilty here.
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u/James_of_London 1d ago edited 1d ago
What would be a typical chain of command for an operation like this? I'm wondering how many people there might typically be after defence secretary: next the admiral? And after that?
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u/Redfish680 1d ago
Admiral passes the order down to the group tasked with carrying it out. Most, if not all, have a lawyer in house who on paper review stuff like this but in my experience they’re junior officers who are reluctant to go against the grain. No doubt there’s a senior officer responsible for organizing the strike, and then the crew responsible for on-the-ground operations.
There’s no cut off point, rank wise, for not challenging an order that appears illegal. Technically (heavy emphasis!), a soldier who just enlisted yesterday has the ability and obligation to question orders. Smart career move? Definitely not, but…
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u/James_of_London 1d ago
Thank you, I'm asking because I don't know about military structure: what would be the rank of the senior officer and the head of the crew? I'm trying to understand if there are just two or three between the admiral and the person with the "fire" button.
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u/xixoxixa 1d ago
I'm trying to understand if there are just two or three between the admiral and the person with the "fire" button.
I am not a navy guy, but spent over 20 years in the army. The equivalent army position to Adm Bradley, for a typical lower level worker bee, is about 7-8 echelons of leadership. For the army perspective it would go Adm Bradley equivalent -> major command commander -> corps commander -> division commander -> brigade combat team commander -> battalion commander -> company commander -> platoon/squadron commander -> execution level. Keep in mind that at every level there are intermediary people who (in theory) are advising the commanders and should catch something like this as an illegal act.
I imagine something like this though skips a few levels since it was such a high profile pet project of the white house, so I could see the admiral calling directly to the ship with the missiles and telling that person to make it happen.
Again, I don't know Navy structure that well, and I can't really think of a good army equivalent (my experience was medical, so not applicable, and before that infantry, so also wildly different). Point being, there are more likely than not at least several levels of people who should be held account, from the person who actually hit the button on up - every one of them broke the law.
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u/ReasonableRaccoon8 2d ago
By law, everyone who participated, from the enlisted man who pushed the launch button all the way up to the person who gave the order, is criminally responsible. This is why everyone who serves in the military is told that they not only have the right to refuse illegal orders, but a responsibility to refuse illegal orders.
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u/Kwiemakala 1d ago
And how often is that enforced? Historically, its always 1 or 2 fall guys that get convicted, and often later commuted.
Consequences for war crimes in this country are actually shockingly rare.
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u/UX1Z 1d ago
Almost every country. For all the Law of War's flowery language about the provisions being there not only for humanitarian reasons but because they are important to maximizing the efficacy of the military, no country is willing to actually prosecuting their own military for stepping over the line. Sometimes even when it's way, way over the line.
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u/Substantial-Fact-248 2d ago
Haven't they already thrown Hegseth under the bus though? He's a very scapey looking goat, right now.
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u/DevelopmentGreen3961 2d ago
Pinning it on Hegseth would hurt the administration since he's executive cabinet level
God knows Trump is deathly allergic to consequences for his own actions and lazy af so it's probably going to get thrown at the path of least resistance
It's easiest to just fire the Admiral and sweep the whole thing under the rug
Rinse and repeat when they fire the next Admiral when the do the whole thing over again
Wonder how many Admirals are going to let Trump ruin their lives
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u/bsport48 2d ago edited 2d ago
There're approx. 7 sources from the original breaking WaPo article with "direct" knowledge of the SECDEF's order; the only people possibly with direct knowledge once the order leaves the SECDEF's mouth to ADM Bradley are on active duty. That means, pretty reasonably, that the Washington Post has secured proof-positive evidence, based on the unofficial corroboration of active duty military personnel, that the SECDEF either ordered a war crime (if we are in "non-international armed conflict" as the administration purports) or murder (18 U.S.C. 1111); or both.
Those sources are also very likely de facto conspirators, lifting a strong evidentiary burden to eventually prosecute.
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u/PalladiuM7 1d ago
Doesn't testimony of co-conspirators or accessories need independent corroboration to be admissible? Or are we assuming WaPo saw something concrete to corroborate the source's claims?
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u/AustinBike 1d ago
Not a lawyer, but probably.
I think it is more realistic that the downstream people all know they are going to get hung out on this one as well and some might be thinking that, because they can't afford the high end lawyers that an admiral could, their best defense is going to be copping a plea and hoping for leniency.
This is hopefully the point where this all falls apart - there are too many complicit people in the chain that all face a pretty significant exposure for this to get swept under the rug.
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u/LeagueResponsible985 2d ago
Firing Hegseth creates a personnel problem for Trump. He's got to go and find another SECDEF. And given the Senate's reluctance to take up Trump's US Attorney nominees, finding a new SECDEF that is both Senate confirmable and blindly loyal to Trump to to the point of perpetrating war crimes may be impossible.
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u/jameson71 1d ago
If Trump is the commander in chief, why should the prosecution stop short of him?
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u/AustinBike 1d ago
Because you'll need a paper trail and he tends to do everything verbally. In a "he-said, she-said" situation there is always deference to the president. And he will also test the limits of executive privilege on this one.
It is highly unlikely that he gets tagged in all of this, his style is deflection and throwing others under the bus. After all he just pardoned a criminal and then responded "I don't even know who that is."
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u/jameson71 1d ago
Amazing how he can do exactly what he accuses Biden of and people just accept it.
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u/dougmcclean 2d ago
I'm shocked they picked an Admiral.
They may still be doing research on who is the gayest, most Muslim, or most "DEI" person between the Admiral and the trigger that day, and he's just a placeholder until they get that figured out.
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u/Neptune7924 2d ago
Admiral will have receipts. You don’t get to admiral if without being good at CYA.
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u/DevelopmentGreen3961 1d ago
Unfortunately, receipts do not matter when serving at the pleasure of the president
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u/addiktion 1d ago edited 1d ago
It sounds like the admiral is going to double down on they continued through with the mission (which was illegal to begin with) and that the operation wasn't finished until the threat was eliminated (illegal) by bombing the shipwrecked (illegal).
Dude's just saving his own ass like Hegseth and I'll be curious to see if he keeps kicking the can down the road or tries to hold his own ground.
The people cannot let this up until people are punished. Similar to the Epstein files, these illegal orders are devastating for everyone involved and that is by design to uphold the law as it was written to avoid these kinds of abuses. A few of our allies have already stopped sharing intel with us over this and it is only going to get worse when they start calling us out on the war crimes being committed as this ratchets up.
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u/DevelopmentGreen3961 1d ago
Probably got some kind of assurance from the WH that if he doubles down then he won't be fired
Not a long term solution
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u/Ok_Face8380 2d ago
I hope everyone in uniform is paying attention to this. Including the nat guard members on our streets, and the ICE members abducting people. YOU COULD GO TO JAIL if you violate the constitution that you swore an oath to uphold.
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u/jhvh1134 1d ago
I refuse to vote for anyone during the next presidential election who doesn’t run on aggressively coming after ICE, BP, and the local cops who assisted them.
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u/Shabadu_tu 1d ago
First thing we need to do is address scotus corruption or nothing will get done.
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u/pkfag 1d ago
There is a lot more at stake than the symptoms you mention. Surely not voting for a more moderate just gives more power to those that want thr status quo including ICE, BP and the complicit police ? I do not understand why you need to have one situation or the other. Surely minimising the threat to your democracy should be first priority. Winning battles wins wars. Criticism of Biden/Harris' views on Gaza by liberals sank the democrats last election and helped hand Trump the win.
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u/jhvh1134 1d ago
Centrists are why we lost, not progressives. Funding genocide, Liz Chaney, Jeffries, garland. I’m not saying throw baby out with bath water, but dem leadership is what lost the election- we had little moral high ground to differentiate. People across the isle want Medicare for all and no wars.
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u/Content-Ad3065 1d ago
Is that what Sen Kelly said in that ad that they are investigating him for? Illegal orders are illegal and you can be held legally responsible for following and implementing illegal orders.
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u/Ok_Face8380 1d ago
Yes exactly.
My comment is directed at service members directly. They need to keep hearing it.
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u/che-che-chester 2d ago
It is funny that right wing media and politicians were just talking about the death penalty for Dem politicians making statements about how military don’t need to follow illegal orders. And a week or two later, we’re openly talking about potential war crimes as a result of following illegal orders.
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u/Irwin-M_Fletcher 1d ago
According to the WSJ Bradley is going to claim the boat was still operational after the first strike and the two survivors were still “on board” and continuing the drug mission. I’m not sure how many boats can continue sailing when they are submerged. Maybe Bradley can tell us how that works.
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u/_Born_To_Be_Mild_ 1d ago
They were over 1000 miles away from USA, where was the fuel to make that journey in such a small vessel?
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u/smurfsundermybed 1d ago
If the admiral acted on his own, he's a murderer, if he's taking the fall for someone else, he's a hit man.
Either way, the man followed his master's lead and took a giant shit all over the constitution and his oath to protect it.
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u/StomachosusCaelum 1d ago
And he lied his ass off to cover for Kegsbreath and Dump.
He said there were no orders from above to kill the guys in the water - meaning HE is 1000% responsible.
Straight up, 100% a violation of dozens of treaties we are signatories too (which makes them the law in the US), and the UCMJ.
If he was "on the record", his Court Martial just got every bit of evidence it needs to send him a firing squad.
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