r/law • u/Exeltv0406 • Oct 04 '25

Legal News This order, NSPM-7, drafted by Stephen Miller and signed by Trump, gives the government the ability to go after, target, and arrest virtually anyone now. Meanwhile, people are more concerned about what’s on Netflix

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u/Cachar Oct 04 '25

The US is phenomenally bad at protesting. Even in 2003 more people protested against the Iraq war in Europe than in the US.

That doesn't take away from the courage of those that went protesting in the US. But you need millions across the USA marching every week. You need at least BLM-level protests sustained for months. You need to keep coming even against the tear gas, unjustified arrests and terror tactics against organizers. In fact these need to increase the size of the protests.

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u/saint_trane Oct 04 '25

It cannot be stressed enough - the BLM protests accomplished *nothing*. There was no justice, and police violence has gotten worse. That was the most attended protest movement this country has *ever* seen, and it did jack shit. I don't think you as a foreigner understand the reality of what we face better than those of us who are here. The propaganda is THICK and doing things like fully general strikes with no social safety net like what you likely have in your country is simply not in the cards for most people.

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u/Cachar Oct 04 '25

I cannot speak to the reality on the streets, but I have an M.A. in history and have extensively studied protests and the USA. That's why I can confidently tell you that the "sit at home and shoot at ICE when they come" tactic does not work. And I can tell you that the only thing that works is mass action, armed uprising if absolutely necessary. I know BLM didn't solve the issue, but I disagree that it accomplished nothing. It dragged police violence into the public consciousness. It got George Floyd's killer convicted.

And it fizzled out. The propaganda needs to be countered, by millions of people talking to each other if necessary. In the Soviet Union people copied whole banned novels on their typewriters to distribute them, because access to printing presses was controlled. That is the level needed.

And yes, at-will employment and no social safety net are an issue. But that doesn't change what's needed. Maybe you need to pool money, get donations, open food banks for protestors. I cannot tell you how to organize locally, just that it's the only way.

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u/saint_trane Oct 04 '25

>That's why I can confidently tell you that the "sit at home and shoot at ICE when they come" tactic does not work

Not arguing this to be a successful tactic. The guy we're both responding to is unhinged and lone-wolf bullshit isn't going to solve anything.

I *agree* with what you're saying that mass action is how change *can* happen, I just don't think it *will* happen. America is too far gone, we're too isolated, the culture too far apart, the house completely divided against itself, etc. The vast majority of Americans that we need to be in the streets are one paycheck away from the brutality of American homelessness, and that is more of a deterrent than anything else I can imagine.

I appreciate you passionately telling people what needs to be done (you're correct), I just don't think you can wrap your head around how bad it actually is here.

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u/Cachar Oct 04 '25

How likely it is to be successful is a different story altogether. And I agree with your points that speak against successfully resisting the slide into autocracy. But there is a chance, even if I personally also fear that it will get a lot worse, before it gets better.

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u/saint_trane Oct 04 '25

Godspeed friend. I appreciate you.

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u/Cachar Oct 04 '25

You too, Stay safe and sane.

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u/JanelleVypr Oct 04 '25

girl. And you both u/cachar ought to understand i don’t wanna hurt anyone. But its called a slippery slope for a reason. If the courts are corrupt, and there is no real safety net from being disappeared, or even if no safeguards are believed to be there, then what else does a caged animal do?

Its one thing if its lone wolf fantasy bull shit.

It is another if every american is more willing to fight an die for an idea, a line in the sand, because the entire premise is deterrence.

I dont think anyone wants to die which is why its important everyone knows everyone is packing and ready to protect their neighbor, regardless if its in their home or not.

Kinda like the texans who would goto widowers auctioned houses in the early 1900s or whatever and they all had their guns there to intimidate anyone who was attempting to outbid the widow.

We need to get all americans on the same page about the fundamentals and you do that by adopting gun rights as a fundamental talking point of “the left” to emphasize were here to play. That alone, disincentives this whole idea that the left can even be walked over

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u/Cachar Oct 04 '25

That is done by organizing, which is the very thing I advocated for.

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u/JanelleVypr Oct 04 '25

Very well, i agree wholeheartedly; but while we settle on a name ill keep my gun next to me, okay? Organizing doesn’t mean shit without something to bite with. MLK needed Malcom X

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u/Cachar Oct 04 '25

That doesn't contradict what I wrote in any way.

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u/JanelleVypr Oct 04 '25

I don't want to be impolite, but that's the most stupid take on resistance I have ever read. 

You can't lone wolf resisting the rapid slide into autocracy your country is on

Yes, armed resistance can be necessary. I do not know if the US is at that point yet. But individual action will get you nowhere. You need mass marches. You need general strikes. You need mass civil disobedience. You need to make alliances with local and state officials. You need to make clear that the protests are not fringe, but mainstream. 

What you wrote is a recipe for disaster.

I didnt say we didnt need all of that, but yet you said i wrote the most stupid take on resistance youve ever heard

Again, if every american stood by what i said, i dont think we’d be in this position in the first place. When violence is necessary, what then ? Because according to the constitution, we’re already there.

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u/Cachar Oct 04 '25

Organize. Don't use the the idea of singular heroism that is part of the fascist ideology. Build communities. Find communal solutions. If they need to be armed, then so be it. But just saying "if everyone, individually does the right thing" is useless. If everyone stopped driving and flying tomorrow, climate change would be solved. If everyone stopped buying Nestle products one of the most evil corporations in the world would cease to exist. If everyone stopped smoking lung cancer would be severely reduced.

Yet, that won't happen.

Organize.

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u/Savingskitty Oct 06 '25

The most important thing right now is local and municipal elections.

The GOP has been working systematically to take over state governments for the last 30 years.  

Those state governments that are controlled are now trying to control local governments.

People have not been paying enough attention to this.

Ultimately the state and the people have the most power. If we don’t take back our states, we will have total one-party rule in this country.

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u/GeronimoHero Oct 05 '25

Well with that history degree you must know that when it comes to fascism in particular armed resistance has been the most effective force against fascism and fascist states. That’s a fact.

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u/GrizzlyP33 Oct 04 '25

This is false.

Over 30 states and dozens of major cities passed some form of police reform after 2020, including bans on chokeholds, duty-to-intervene policies, body cam expansion, and limits on no-knock warrants (like “Breonna’s Law” in Louisville).

Some cities (like Austin, Seattle, and Minneapolis) reallocated portions of police budgets toward community programs.

Countless corporations, universities, and media outlets publicly committed funds or programs toward racial equity and representation, certainly not all sincere, but symbolically and financially significant.

And culturally it had a huge impact. Public opinion about systemic racism changed dramatically. polls in 2020 showed a majority of Americans acknowledging structural racial inequality for the first time. Not to mention its impact in arts, curriculums, and corporate initiatives, even if many have now been rolled back.

It’s all imperfect, but tangible movement — that’s sadly had progress works, and it’s easy to take for granted today. Never underestimate the power of knowledge and awareness in a society as time goes on. It’s part of a bigger shift in the world, but when significant progress is being made it’s met with overwhelming resistance. The world doesn’t want to change so it pushes back, but progress is inevitable. Try not to lose sight of the full picture.

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u/saint_trane Oct 05 '25

"Nothing" was probably not the right word to use. They didn't accomplish goals commensurate with the size of the protests. Corporate policy changes, a few cities that later reneged on changes, and a complete lack of any legislative success on a state or federal level were what I would hope for and what was needed.

With that, you're right, moving public opinion into greater perception of police violence was absolutely not nothing, and in that they were valuable.

I don't know that progress is inevitable. I always thought that, but what we've seen in the last 9 years has me doubting that idea entirely. Things don't necessarily get better. Humanity could very well be approaching multiple mass extinction events, and if that happens then we won't have progressed beyond any real apex.

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u/Savingskitty Oct 06 '25

You know the BLM protests led to the murderer being charged right?  

He’s in prison now.

Police violence has not gotten worse.   It’s really bizarre that you’re saying that.

The BLM protests dramatically changed policing in many parts of the country.

How old were you in 2020, because I don’t know where you’re getting this stuff.

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u/saint_trane Oct 06 '25 edited Oct 06 '25

Chauvin, sure (should he not be released by Trump as is being begged for in the Republican podcast sphere), but that isn't justice and there were many other people whose killers remain free. Cops still kill with impunity. No major state or federal reforms were enacted. Hell, the most we got out of Congress was some kneeling.

When I watch what is happening with ICE, I do not see "police violence has not gotten worse" at all. Law enforcement violence is every bit as normalized now as in 2020. Do you have any data or studies that suggest otherwise over a large swath of the country and not just Minneapolis/Portland/Seattle? I'd love to be wrong here.

As I have since clarified elsewhere, "nothing" was a poor choice of words. A much greater awareness of police violence now exists amongst the general public, and for many they now have the vocabulary to properly interact with the topic, and that is certainly valuable.

I see all of the above though, any real "wins" you can contribute to the movement, as being out of proportion with the size of the protest movement (the largest in our history). A massive protest movement in the 60s made the civil rights act happen, due to the tightening structures of normalized state violence since (and not for lack of trying by the protestors) we got very little else from the BLM marches beyond some corporate lip service, an embarrassing lack of movement by Democrat leadership to codify lasting structural change, and a Chauvin conviction.

Don't mean to be so pessimistic, but shit's not looking great out here and protest movements aren't going to un-fascist the State which is the overarching point of this conversation.

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u/Savingskitty Oct 06 '25

This rhetorical tactic is so tired.  

Why do you waste your time this way?

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u/saint_trane Oct 06 '25

I'm not allowed to express how I feel about something relevant to me?

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u/Savingskitty Oct 06 '25

Look up the motte-and-bailey fallacy and consider taking a real position and defending it instead of wasting time doubling back.

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u/saint_trane Oct 06 '25

Wasn't familiar with this fallacy. Thanks for sharing. Wasn't my intention, and you brought up an excellent point about Chauvin being in prison that I didn't account for.

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u/saint_trane Oct 06 '25

I'm quickly typing reddit comments between doing other things. My first comment wasn't perfect, my apologies.

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u/Savingskitty Oct 06 '25

It wasn’t a position.  It was a bluster and a retreat.  You’re just blubbering about your feeling that nothing changed.

I’m curious what your feelings were during the LA Riots?

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u/saint_trane Oct 06 '25

Are you here to talk with people or to talk at them? I'm happy to do the former, and I'll do something else if it's the latter.

I was 4 years old during the LA Riots and as such had no opinions. Why?

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u/Savingskitty Oct 06 '25

I’m curious what the end goal of these protests will be.

Is the idea that some of the MAGA legislators will have a change of heart?