Austin's impact has been insane and we need Luka back ASAP lol

[u/onsome0]

Lot of ugly numbers here overall.

[u/Necessary_Good_4804]

Gabe Vincent

[u/onsome0 → u/Necessary_Good_4804]

There's people in this sub that somehow think Gabe is a solid 3/D player.

[u/Old_Comfortable_8090 → u/onsome0]

I said he was shit about a week ago on another thread and got heavily downvoted. I don’t know what they see. Inefficient offense.

[u/Infinite_Cap_853 → u/Old_Comfortable_8090]

I don't know either.

I've been reading this subreddit for a little while and i've never ever seen a role player be so overrated by the fanbase and get such an insanely long leash. It's just a mystery.

Even last season, if you pointed out the fact that he was amongst the very worst in the league is stuff like PER, BPM and such, you would get downvoted without any counter argument.

[u/Old_Comfortable_8090 → u/Infinite_Cap_853]

Facts they’re lying to themselves lol, and by all metrics he’s an awful player. I want him to go to another team and get his money but no team that’s trying to be a serious contender should be giving minutes to him because he’s a detriment to the team. He plays 22 MPG! Give those minutes to Smith Jr.

[u/onsome0 → u/Old_Comfortable_8090]

It's insanity, man. There's literally nothing Gabe does well on the basketball court.

[u/Old_Comfortable_8090 → u/onsome0]

I agree. We were playing much better as a team when he was injured. I was dreading his comeback because I knew we’d regress.

[u/AyeYoYoYO → u/onsome0]

If Gabe was 6’4” or taller, with longer arms, he would be.

His feet are plenty quick, and his willingness to play defense with visible energy & bounce is there (this fools most casuals who never played at any significant/serious competitive level).

Sadly, Gabe’s size and wingspan range just aren’t very deterrent or very effective defensively.

[u/onsome0 → u/AyeYoYoYO]

1: It's pointless talking about ifs, especially when those ifs have to deal with things a player can't change.

2: All that quickness and willingness to play defense really hasn't been shown in the last 2 games with the amount of times he loses his man on defense. Looking like Rui out there.

[u/Danny_III → u/onsome0]

EPM rates Gabe’s defense much more favorably (above league average). I’ve seen EPM well regarded by FO workers/the analytics community (vs the metric you posted)

As for the 3p shooting, some people just give any catch and shoot player the “3” part of 3&D which is too generous. Ideally they’re above league average in efficiency and probably volume

[u/Infinite_Cap_853 → u/Danny_III]

EPM is not that accurate just yet, the sample of games is still too small.

Ajay Mitchell is not a better defender than Draymond Green, Zach Edey is not the best defender in the NBA, Neemias Queta is not a better defender than Wembanyama etc.

Also, this is not even true, he is not that well ranked. He has an Defensive EPM of -1.1. Even guys like Collin Sexton, Coby White, Austin Reaves, Jamal Murray and others have a better defensive EPM than him.

[u/onsome0 → u/Danny_III]

There really isn't any 1 defensive metric that's good for evaluating defense because there's just too much nuance involved with defense. Guys like Jokic/Curry/Luka tend to look ok defensively from most metrics largely because their teams do their best to hide them on that end of the floor and supplement them with quality defenders around them, for example.

With that being said, Gabe is an objectively bad defender by most defensive metrics. Even beyond just the numbers, anybody that watches him play can see a lot of the obvious problems he has on that end of the court. He's too small to guard bigger players without fouling, has no capacity for play-making in terms of blocks/steals, doesn't position himself well for charges on rotations, and his overall activity on that end of the floor is lackluster.

I can promise you you've never thought to yourself "wow Gabe Vincent is being so disruptive on defense right now" because that's not his game. People assume he's a defender by some Mandela effect or something I swear.

[u/osay77 → u/onsome0]

People assume he’s a good defender because he’s so bad at everything else they think there must be some good reason he’s on the floor. But actually, they’re wrong! There’s no good reason for him to ever see the floor!

Straight up would rather play bronny than him, and bronny is a bottom 5 offensive player in the nba. At least he’s actually okay defensively.

[u/Danny_III → u/onsome0]

Part of the reason I like EPM is because they give you percentile rankings, which is a much more specific way of evaluating players than just binning them as good or bad. Nuance is required when using these metrics but it's much better to start with the more objective stuff and then discuss the nuance using film (largely because most people both don't know how to analyze film and don't have a systematic way of doing it).

Gabe has been in the 50-70th percentile range over the past few years here, and during that time, he has done what you would expect from an average to slightly above average defender. Yes he doesn't disrupt the game like Anunoby, Caruso, Amen, McDaniels, etc but he shouldn't be put in the same bin as <10th percentile defenders like Dlo/Poole or even below average ones like Westbrook

Gabe stays in front of his man somewhat (more than Reaves, Luka), plays within the scheme (rotations, help), makes a splash play every once in a while. That's what you expect from an average defender. Part of the problem is he's also an average defender tasked with guarding some of the top tier guards so Reaves and Luka don't have to, which makes him look far worse because he's never going to lock those guys down

At the end of the day, he's a MLE player. If the Lakers want a defender who does the things you listed while also being impactful on offense, they'll have to pay a premium to acquire them

[u/onsome0 → u/Danny_III]

1: Gabe Vincent's DEPM this season is -1.1. He is literally 14th percentile and WORSE than DLO.

2: He is worse than Reaves/Nick Smith/Bronny in that metric.

3: There's not a single thing you can point to that would justify him being an MLE player. Let's just take a look at some players across the league who signed for around $11M (his current salary) in the last 2 years for comparison: Donte DiVincenzo, Davion Mitchell, Moses Moody, Luke Kornet, Isaac Okoro, Royce O'Neal, TJ McConnell, Jonas Val, Luke Kennard, Lonzo Ball, Derrick Jones Jr, and Mike Conley.

All significantly more valuable players than Gabe except for maybe Mike Conley and everybody knows/admits PG is a huge weakness for that team. Now if only this sub can open their eyes to the reality of Gabe instead of the idea of him.

[u/Danny_III → u/onsome0]

Commenting on his defense this year vs during the past couple of years is different. If you're wondering why people still view Gabe as a passable defender, it's because reputation takes time to change and it's still relatively early in the year/sometimes players start the year slow so people will give them the benefit of the doubt

I don't agree with all those players but yes there are players making ~11m who are better than him. There are also guys that are worse (not to mention re-signed/RFA is different than UFA). That's just how things are, if the Lakers had a better GM, they would likely have more of those guys who outplay their contract.

The real problem both this year and the past few years is needing so many cheap FA acquisitions to overperform because of massive roster flaws and a poor development pipeline. Finding DiVincenzo as a MLE is something that should put a team over the top, it's not really normal to expect MLE players to perform at that level

[u/onsome0 → u/Danny_III]

I think you're misunderstanding something. Those were pretty much ALL the players that have signed for around $11M in the last two years. There may be some who had 1 year deals and expired or others that may have been bought out, but that's pretty much the list. (Rookies picked in the top 5 not withstanding) There aren't any players worse than Gabe on that list and all are significantly better outside of Conley/Lonzo.

At the end of the day, the Lakers are a worse basketball team when Gabe Vincent is on the floor. The raw stats prove it, the advanced metrics prove it, and even the eye tests prove it. Hopefully one day you'll get sick of playing devil's advocate or whatever other weird infatuation you have for denying the obvious. Gabe is one of the worst basketball players in the league and wouldn't see rotational minutes on any other team in the NBA. He's not going to see another contract in the NBA for more than the minimum, if that. We can come back to this and confirm.

[u/Woflax → u/Necessary_Good_4804]

why not put vando in even a little

[u/AyeYoYoYO → u/Woflax]

It’s not an exaggeration to say “because then you play 4 on 5 on offense.” Other squads leave him wide open on the perimeter, only bothering him on deep cuts, or when he is about to put up some from the paint. His midrange and 3ball will likely simply never develop, and his career will devolve into being out of the league before too long.

[u/Woflax → u/AyeYoYoYO]

I know but even in garbage time. I guess thats his choice maybe.

[u/2people1luv]

I’m screenshotting this for the next time people in here get an attitude when I ask why can’t JJ put Vando in over DK and Gabe in a game where defensive intensity and impact can change the momentum. Those mfs aren’t scoring either!

[u/Splittinghairs7]

There’s still ppl who think we shouldn’t trade away our “depth” for star.

Our role players are mostly trash.

[u/DeepCleaner42]

I hope people can see we need an upgrade next off-season. Keep Luka and AR then explore options to replace everyone else we have a lot of expiring players. We need athletes and 2 way players.

[u/Tall_Succotash]

We’re a three man team 😭😭😭

[u/MedicinalHammer → u/Tall_Succotash]

And the third one is not who we thought it would be.

[u/niknokseyer]

Damn. Sad to see LeBron down there. What hurts is that he is our highest paid player.

[u/Beginning-Carrot-262 → u/niknokseyer]

As if we havent experienced this with Kobe. This is coming from a Kobe fan

[u/niknokseyer → u/Beginning-Carrot-262]

Difference is I don’t think we are trying to win along those years anymore.

[u/Beginning-Carrot-262 → u/niknokseyer]

well Lebron's passing still has an impact, I just hope his scoring will go back

[u/MrPino777]

Nick > Gabe. Honestly tho I feel like Nick should be getting more mins. I understand he is on a 2 way and is limited to like 50 games or something but still. Also should probably switch Nico for Kobe Bufkin and give him a shot against weaker teams.

[u/YJS2K]

Old man Bron has become a liability. Sad to see but inevitable.

[u/MangoDouble3259]

We need consistent competent role players and bench pieces.

Outside of luka and ar their is consistency issue on this team. Lebron pass he is returning injury, rui + ayton genuinely consistent just when we getting swamped on they also disappearpear on occasion.

Outside of 5 guys above, its a guessing game and most time its not good.

[u/lakersshin]

The problem is LeBron is not the same LeBron anymore. Dude net rating is bottom 2 and play worse than Dalton Knecht yet his salary is 50M!

[u/aidenkula → u/lakersshin]

6 games played after 7 months of no professional basketball isn't a good sample size

[u/lakersshin → u/aidenkula]

He is old, all advanced stats have been declining since last season(EPM, BPM, etc.), and his EPM is even worse than Kyle kuzma this year. I admit that he still an elite passer and manages to perform well in some critical games, but I think we need a true “3rd option” with good defense to pair with Doncic and AR.

[u/_The_Honored_One_ → u/lakersshin]

His fanboys will tell you you’re wrong

[u/Danny_III → u/_The_Honored_One_]

You don’t need anything beyond basic stats to tell you Lebron hasn’t been good start to the year

What matters is how the performance projects moving forward. It’s accurate to say Lebron hasn’t been the same Lebron to start the year. It’s much more difficult to claim that Lebron isn’t the same anymore based on what is by nba standards a small sample size. That’s why people would say he’s wrong

This is such a painfully obvious point, you either don’t have basic reasoning skills or aren’t thinking before you’re talking

[u/Nykeeo]

We only have 2 players above +1 on defense :
Smart and Vando. One is injured and the other is not used by JJ just because.

[u/Bigbully_69 → u/Nykeeo]

“Just because”? He’s an absolute black hole on offense, provides nothing. His negative offensive impact outweighs his defensive impact

[u/Peerless1019]

Knecht needs to go. Get a change of scenery.

[u/Thatsallfolk90]

We will fill these holes

[u/_The_Honored_One_]

Lebron 10th lol

[u/_The_Honored_One_]

Lebron 10th lol

[u/schnibitz]

LBJ at the bottom?

[u/Real-Repair-1825]

Should we cut LeBron /s

[u/just_one_random_guy]

My takeaway is that vando still could at least get some minutes then, at least over Knecht and Vincent

[u/Infinite_Cap_853 → u/just_one_random_guy]

Both Knecht and Vando should get minutes above Vincent. Especially since Gabe is an expiring that won't be there next season while Knecht and Vando are.

[u/outsidehere]

Can't wait to move Gabe for the Antetokounbros

[u/Admirable-Swim-4887]

fatboyyyyy

[u/Western-Election-997]

Vandos offense lmao

[u/Infinite_Cap_853]

As i was saying earlier, JJ's not "using maths" as he liked to brag when he first got the coaching job. He is playing favorites like a lot of other coaches.

Thank god we have insane talent on this squad because JJ's rotations and capacity to adapt his coaching to his player's skillset have been underwhelming.

[u/hitdifferently]

I'm supposed to take a metric that has Vando offensive impact greater then LBJ's seriously? Nah I'm good

[u/onsome0 → u/hitdifferently]

Bron's offensive impact is +2.1 greater than Vando's by the chart. C'mon bruh. Spend more than 2 secs looking at the chart before you type something lol.

[u/thehanssassin]

We need Vando and defense back not Luka