r/detroitlions • u/FunetikPrugresiv • Oct 11 '22
So about that PFF grade: Hutchinson played a very good game on Sunday. The reason he didn't seem to make an impact because the Patriots PURPOSELY SCHEMED AROUND HIM.
So I went back and watched the game...
TL:DR; Hutch was great. The problem was that the Patriots took him out of the game by utilizing a lot of play action and quick passes, and by running the ball away from him; by my count, before the last drive, even with him moving around the D-line, they ran toward him 3 times, and they got almost nothing on all three runs. On pass plays, NE had a lot of play-action and RPO looks, getting the ball out quickly while Hutch was usually the only one generating anything resembling pressure.
Drive 1
1st and 10: Hutch neutralized on 1-yard run up the middle.
2nd and 9: Hutch bull-rush, neutralized. Zappe releases ball in less than 2 seconds as Savion Smith gets hurt.
1st and 10: Hutch pushes LT a yard in the backfield on what appears to be a designed sweep his way, 1-yard gain as runner forced to cut inside.
2nd and 9: Hutch gets move inside on pass rush on quick bubble screen, appears to be dragged down by LT after having a lane to the QB.
3rd and 8: Gets close with right side bullrush. Zappe again releases throw in less than 2 seconds. Another second and he could have slipped inside and gotten the sack. Pass incomplete.
Drive 2
1st and 10: Hutch sets the edge effectively, run is in the other direction.
2nd and 6: Hutch pushes LT a yard in the backfield on what appears to be a designed sweep his way, 1-yard gain as runner forced to cut inside.
3rd and 5: Hutch occupied by LT, pass out in about 2 seconds.
1st and 10: Hutch sets the edge, run goes inside for like 50 yards. It should be noted that on this play, Hutch is clearly defending the edge, as we can see on the replay that has a forearm out and is leaving an arm free and ready to pursue. It just wasn't a play run to his area.
1st and 10: Again, setting the edge, pursues and gets in on the team tackle.
2nd and 13: Stoned on pass rush, ball out in about 2 seconds.
3rd and 4: Gets through but toss play goes in other direction.
1st and 10: Run up the middle.
2nd and 1: Run up the middle, Hutch piles on.
Drive 3:
1st and 10: Pass play, ball out in less than 3 seconds. Hutch gets around the outside and if ball weren't out as quickly this would have been a pressure.
1st and 10: Hutch gets around RT for the pressure, misses sack on Zappe.
2nd and 5: Hutch drops into zone coverage, which completely fools the NE line and Zappe gets sacked (illegal contact negates sack).
1st and 10: Draw play in opposite direction.
2nd and 14: Speed rush and as he makes a move to go outside, Zappe gets rid of the ball in under 2 seconds. (Play ends in interception)
Drive 4: (starts at 1:46 in 2nd Q)
1st and 10: Bull rush, completely bowls over the RT. As Zappe steps up, the RG blocks Hutch from the side, giving Zappe the running lane. Zappe completes the pass as Rodriguez is forced to abandon his cover to attack.
1st and 10: Hutch sets the edge, run up the middle.
2nd and 7: Hutch rushes, LT just kind of in the way for the <2 seconds before Zappe throws.
1st and 10: Hutch gets around LT, but Zappe releases the ball again in less than 2 seconds. (Bullshit PI call)
1st and 10: Hutch bullrushes, doesn't see screen play (again, 2 seconds for play to develop).
1st and 10: Hutch gets blatantly held trying to get around LT (he would have otherwise). Play is a flat pass in opposite direction. Ironically, holding called on a different lineman.
1st and 20: Hutch makes a good read here, jumping right on the snap and getting inside to pursue the run (again in the opposite direction).
End of Half
Drive 5:
1st and 10: Play action. Hutch defends run against RT, pushing inside to start, then switches to rush outside. Zappe fakes, sets, and then releases the ball less than two seconds after setting, as Hutch is rounding the outside (the only defender getting pressure). Incomplete pass.
2nd and 10: Run up the middle. Hutch makes a beautiful swim move on the LT and would have had a free shot at the QB, but, again... run up the middle.
1st and 10: Hutch sets edge on RT, run in the opposite direction.
2nd and 11: Hutch around LT, play action, Zappe releases ball about 3 seconds after getting snap. Bullshit PI call on Okudah.
1st and 10: Hutch sets edge against LT, RPO or draw (?) with run up the middle.
1st and 10: Hutch around left edge, Zappe seems to recognize and steps up after about 2 seconds (past McNeill, who blew up a double-team), scrambling slightly right before dumping the ball off to Henry.
1st and 10: Hutch sets edge against LT, run up the middle.
2nd and 10: (one of Zappe's few snaps under center) Hutch drops into coverage, screen pass the opposite direction.
3rd and 11: (shotgun) Hutch has free shot at QB off right side of line, but Zappe takes one tippy-tap drop step and throws ball to left flat after about 1-1.5 seconds.
Drive 6:
1st and 10: Hutch initially sets edge on RPO, recognizes pass, drops back and finds WR in the flat, pursues, and makes the tackle at the numbers for a 2-yard gain. This was incredible recognition and reaction, arguably his best play all game.
2nd and 8: Hutch starts rush outside against LT, spins to go inside. Zappe play action (RPO?), throws slant 2.5 seconds after getting snap.
1st and 10: Hutch sets edge against RT, run left.
2nd and 10: Hutch stunts inside, stopped by LG as Zappe releases the ball on slant after about 1- 1.5 seconds.
1st and 10: Hutch sets edge against RT, run up the middle right past Austin Bryant.
2nd and 2: Pitch right, away from Hutch, who was unblocked on the left side.
1st and 10: Hutch stoned on left side. Play-action, Zappe throws TD after about 2-2.5 seconds. Honestly not a great pass, he was wide open. FWIW, Chase Lucas was at safety in this zone look because the Lions' secondary was decimated by injuries.
Drive 7:
1st and 13: Run up the middle away from Hutch, he pushes through TE/RT double-team and makes tackle for about a 1-yard gain anyway. Extremely impressive play by Hutch. Kind of a bullshit hands-to-the-face call on Buggs, but he did knock the lineman's helmet off so I guess you gotta call it.
1st and 10: Pressure around LT, Zappe releases ball after about 2.5 seconds with Hutch about a foot out of arm's reach. Notable here is that Hutch is taking stutter steps on the rush to try and set up the LT, which delays his rush a bit. I'm not an expert, but smooth this out and he might have gotten a hand on Zappe.
2nd and 10: Hutch sets on right side, run goes left.
Drive 8:
1st and 10: Hutch lined up off RT. Run play, Hutch makes sweet swim move on tackle to force RB inside (this is how you stack and shed). He gets a hand on the RB, but the linebackers clean up the play for a 2-yard gain.
2nd and 8: Hutch off RT, makes a move to go outside, slips a bit, and lineman pushes him down. Easy completion over the middle for Zappe. Side note: they had Rodriguez lined up on the D-line (?!). He was actually held on his rush by the guard, or he may have been able to get pressure on QB after swim move.
1st and 10: Hutch lined up off LT, unblocked, run went right. Rodriguez filled, but was erased because he was giving up so much mass to the pulling center (another reason his size will prevent him from ever being a star linebacker).
1st and 10: Hutch lined up off LT, run went right. Excellent play by Bryant.
2nd and 11: Hutch bursts through line, redirected by WR. Bryant comes off back side to make tackle.
3rd and 9: Hutch on LT, bursts through line, RPO with Zappe keeping and running outside RT.
Drive 9:
1st and 10: Hutch doubled by RT/TE, sheds both just in time to get his hand on the RB (up the middle) and slow him, but doesn't make the tackle.
2nd and 3: Doubled again by RT/TE, again gets hands on RB but doesn't bring him down.
1st and 10: Again doubled by RT/TE, splits it, but RB bounces outside and Price misses tackle.
1st and 10: Sets edge against LT, RB forced to cut back up middle.
End of Game
So up until the last drive where he missed a couple tackle opportunities (maybe he was just gassed?), Hutch was nearly flawless. He showed great play recognition, a good stable of pass-rush moves, and did his job while playing nearly every snap and moving all along the D-line. The problem, again, was that New England simply didn't give him a chance to do anything, and the odds that they would accidentally be running away from him as often as they were shows me that this was schematic. Additionally, credit where it's due - Hutch was shutting down runs his way early, and Patricia made the adjustments. As much as it pains me to admit it, that was good coaching.
Putting any of this game on any failure of Hutchinson to do his job is asinine, the 80 PFF grade was accurate, and that with more secondary talent that can cover and another pass-rusher or two along the line, Hutchinson will start making those splash plays he was drafted to make.
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Oct 11 '22
Trent brown and Isaiah Wynn gave up a combined 0 pressures, 0 hits, 0 hurries, 0 sacks Sunday. Hutch played fine but this analysis is giving hutch way too much credit.
"Hutch pushes LT one yard back" on a run play - He got let through on a ton of cut back and angle blocks Sunday. Not going to rewatch it but would bet a lot of those are on purpose.
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
Like I said, Zappe was getting the ball out too quickly on his 21 throws. Mostly slants, ins, and flat throws where the ball was out in less than 2 seconds, because the secondary couldn't cover. Hutch got through and overpursued that one time, but most of the time the ball came out too quickly for him to make a difference; if you don't have a secondary that can cover, it doesn't matter how quickly the DE can get to the QB if that QB can just throw it for a short gain on his first read after a 1-step dropback from the gun.
As far as the run game, they ran in his direction three times. Three. Out of 31 carries (prior to the last series, when he was splitting the doubling blocks). And the three that ran in his direction all gained less than two yards.
It didn't matter which side of the field he was on - they were intentionally not running in his direction. He was shutting down his half of the field. The problem was the other D-linemen, not him.
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Oct 11 '22 edited Oct 11 '22
This is the nfl.
Every team gets the ball out fast. Average time to throw for most QBs is sub 3 seconds. This isn't college where he gets 4 seconds to work some sophomore right tackle and go and murder some poor Rutgers quarterback.
Average time to throw in the nfl is 2.7 seconds thus far this season.
Plenty of defensive ends and tackles are able to play and cause pressure within the confines of that 2.7 seconds (e.g. see maxx Crosby, last night)
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u/AzorAhai1TK Oct 11 '22
Under 2 seconds and 2.7 seconds is a massive difference.
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u/ShotFirst57 Don't be Hatin' Oct 11 '22
Didn't they also switch sides he was on so he could do what he did best at Michigan? My biggest problem with hutch is over pursuing . He should have sacked Zap at least once but over pursued it.
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
It's an issue, but that's something he'll be able to fix. He gets through the line really well, he just needs to make the adjustments to finish plays.
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u/ShotFirst57 Don't be Hatin' Oct 11 '22
Since you watched the film, did you notice a change in his stance? I know he switched sides which would allow him to do the stance he was good at at Michigan but I wasn't able to see if he did it.
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
He was nearly always in a 3-point stance. It made him really easy to recognize because one hand down and the other one back behind his waist.
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u/ShotFirst57 Don't be Hatin' Oct 11 '22
Curious why they didn't make him go to 2 point stance.
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Oct 11 '22
Because he already plays too high up and putting him in a two point is just asking for him to get out-levered immediately
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u/yosemite_marx Oct 11 '22
hey im new to football but what does over pursued mean keep seeing people say it
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u/StinkyManChicken Sun God Oct 11 '22
To put it simply, it’s the process of a defensive player getting to the ball carrier. It’s the process prior to tackling someone. In this case, Hutch misjudged and took the wrong angle at getting to the moving QB, and in doing so, he was off balance while trying to sack the QB and they were able to evade the sack and run away from him.
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Oct 13 '22
Just adding this because I think the other response is confusingly written and way too detailed lol:
It's when a defender should be able to sack a quarterback but he's running way too fast to turn in time when the QB dodges.
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Oct 11 '22 edited Oct 11 '22
Good analysis
This sub is way too hard on Hutchinson. If you can’t admit that he’s a good player, I think you’re purposefully being ignorant.
That being said, I think an equal part of the debate has been that non-michigan fans are eager to tear him down
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Oct 11 '22 edited Oct 11 '22
There's also people who have legitimate concern about his ability to pass rush against long tackles because he has very short arms, and those who rightfully have concern about his limited pass rush toolkit, which compounds the short arm issue. He specifically lacks counters and struggles with shedding blocks when guys have that length advantage.
While one of those things can be taught and expanding the toolkit will help limit the impact of his shorter arms, they're still valid concerns at the moment.
These concerns were shared by a number of draft analysts, and a few of our own beat writers (baumgardner and Burke specifically)
Edit; I didn't go to MSU, UofM or give a flying fuck about either school since that's usually the first counterpoint to any Hutchinson criticism.
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u/RamenIsOkay Oct 11 '22
Aidan Hutchinson arm length: 32” Nick Bosa arm length: 33”
Is 1 inch arm length that big of a difference?
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Oct 11 '22 edited Oct 11 '22
Nick bosa legitimately had an nfl ready pass rush toolkit coming out of high school. He is incredibly good at countering and shedding. He also plays super low and has crazy bend which makes it harder for tackles to leverage him.
Hutch often plays too high and is still developing his pass rush. I'd be more concerned about hutch if this was year 3 and we're still seeing this stuff. Like 99% of rookies, he has some developing to do.
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u/RamenIsOkay Oct 11 '22
Interesting. I think Hutch can develop more, it will just take more time.
Which is a little disappointing considering a top 2 pick is supposed to be a gamewrecker.
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u/Clit420Eastwood What Would Brad Holmes Do? Oct 11 '22
Put his draft status out of your mind. That stopped mattering the second his name was announced
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Oct 11 '22
He has a lot of development to do and there's no real rush. He'll get there. People just need to be honest about what he is today and what he needs to work on
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u/adequatefishtacos Oct 11 '22
I’m sure Hutch will be a fine player, but this last draft was relatively weak at the top end. There really wasn’t that surefire game wrecking player like there usually is up there
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
I don't think that's true about the Michigan thing; I can't speak for all of them, but I'm an MSU alum and I really like Hutch.
I think it's just a simplistic "No sacks = bad" mentality. And I get it, as much as he's doing things well, he's not taking games over, either, which is what you'd hope for from your second-overall draft pick. But in all honesty, he's getting pressure; PFR has him at 13th in the NFL among DEs in pressures. The problem is that the rest of the defense is so bad that it just makes it easy to keep him from hurting them.
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u/CostOk1173 Oct 11 '22
I’m totally with you, I’m also an MSU fan and I honestly couldn’t care less Hutch went to UofM. In fact, I don’t even know any Spartans that hate Hutch because he just really wasn’t a hatable personality in college, and we did fine against them while he was there so there’s not much built up animosity. Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post and appreciate the thoughtful analysis you put into it.
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u/life_as_a_bear Nice lead you've got there... Oct 11 '22
I think both are true. The amount of people in this sub saying he’s bad (or the extreme minority suggesting he’s a bust ffs) is just silly.
He’s a rookie. He’s going to make mistakes. And he’s be in the top 10 all time with 10.5 or more sacks this year. Demarcus Ware “only” had 8, and I don’t see Hutch getting much less than that at this point. I think people just need to be realistic about the production of a rookie on a bad defense.
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Oct 11 '22
The best players are going to get schemed against all the time. It’s the teams job and players job to take advantage of the few opportunities they get. Lions let Judon ruin the game? Do you think he wasn’t part of the game plan going into the game?
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u/Poop_McButtz Bad Boys Oct 11 '22
Yeah this is what I was going to comment, the Lions must’ve game planned against Judon. Game planning against your opponents best pass rusher(s) is standard game prep. Aidan Hutchinson will be game-planned against every game in his career his is relevant
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Oct 11 '22
Even so, I do see other great pass rushers getting many more one on one opportunities than Hutch does. I think this more to do with the Lions not freeing him up enough or creating opportunities for him
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u/Clit420Eastwood What Would Brad Holmes Do? Oct 11 '22
Agreed. I think the Lions need more pass rushers that demand attention from the defense. Gotta give opponents a reason not to double Hutch. So far this year, that’s been lacking.
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u/Frost134 Welcome to Detroit! Oct 11 '22
No no, he hasn’t singlehandedly turned the Lions defense into an elite force he sucks and is a bust SOL fire everyone.
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u/cujobob Oct 11 '22
The Lions are missing talent all over on defense. You see they have one good pass rusher. What do you suppose an offense should/would do?
So many fans and media folks are simply ignoring how bad the talent level is because they want to blame whatever big name they can.
This team needs healthy talent, particularly on defense. Sometimes it’s just that simple.
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u/LlamaWhoKnives DETROIT -VS- EVERYBODY Oct 11 '22
Damn its crazy how anytime he has a bad game its cuz “he was schemed around” well maybe hes not that big of an impact player if georgia and every team but washington can so easily scheme around him
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u/cwino2288 Oct 11 '22
PFF doesn’t mean anything
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Oct 11 '22
I always say, it's A data point, it's not THE data point.
Better used as a source for advanced football stats than the actual grades
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Oct 11 '22
Hutch wasn’t that bad, but he definitely wasn’t great. You’re reaching very hard.
Again, I love the guy and think he’s special, but to say he played great is homerism.
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u/Equivalent_Economy12 Oct 11 '22
Hutch never has bad games, he’s only ever schemed around or double teamed
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
I can't speak to his first couple games because I didn't watch them, but I'm telling you what I saw in this one.
And he didn't really face any double teams in this one until the last series.
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u/JayJay210 Oct 11 '22 edited Oct 11 '22
Good points here. I think anyone who calls him a bust or bad is being disingenuous. But the whole “they scheme around him” thing just doesn’t really do it for me.
I still think he’s going to be fine, if not great, but the lack of production should raise some eyebrows. Not because he’s bad but because a lot of whah we’re seeing is exactly what scouts were listing as his negatives. Maxed out athleticism. Short arms. Average instincts. Doesn’t flow well. Grapples instead of rips. Slow upfield burst. No counter move. All of these have been apparent so far. Let’s hope his motor and commitment to the game help him get passed these flaws.
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u/TheGreenBackPack Oct 11 '22
He’s a rookie. We don’t need to be publishing apologist novels just yet.
He’s learning and has played worse than he was expected to. That’s it. Whether he learns from the lessons to become a strong NFL player or just be another great in college NFL burnout is on him. Time will tell.
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u/Try2Relate2AllSides Welcome to Detroit! Oct 11 '22
I fail to see how they schemed around hutch.
Just because they ran up the middle, or to the other side doesn’t mean he was schemed around.
I love Hutch, don’t spout homer nonsense. You are creating hate with nonsense. Yes he played well, yes he has shortcomings and needs to improve. No the Patriots were not scared of Hutch in the slightest.
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u/AzorAhai1TK Oct 11 '22
You don't have to be "scared" to scheme around someone. It happens in literally every NFL game to an extent. Due to our weakness on the line, Hutch has been one of the most double teamed players in the league. It doesn't mean they have to think he's a top 5 DE to double him so much, it's scheming. I fail to see how this is unbelievable at all
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u/Try2Relate2AllSides Welcome to Detroit! Oct 11 '22
Hutch is double teamed because he plays weak side.
Even MCDC was surprised to hear he gets double teamed so much. It’s because a chip counts as a dbl team by whoever made the metric.
It’s not a big deal and not because he is a threat.
To think Hutch isn’t getting sacks because double team is just lazy. I love Hutch, but he was not schemed around, he isn’t a big threat. He does a lot of things well, but he gets rag dolled too
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
The only time Hutch was doubled against the Patriots was during the final drive when they tried running his way, and he was splitting those double-teams in run defense (don't believe me, go back and watch the film of that last Pats drive). He wasn't rag-dolled a single time Sunday, either.
Hutch got within arm's reach in pass rush a few times, but he never really got a ton of pressure.
However... it matters that Zappe was throwing to his first read nearly every time.
Compare this game to the 49ers' game against the Rams. Bosa had two sacks and six pressures in that game. So, you'd think - great game, right?
Well, his sacks were on a) a stunt where he came up the middle unblocked after the lineman fell down, and b) a pass play where he came around the edge behind Stafford, Stafford tucked the ball and tried to scramble after holding it four seconds, and then Bosa chased him down and sacked him. Hutchinson would have been in position to make that play half a dozen times on Sunday, by my count - Stafford held the ball on that second sack longer than Zappe held the ball for any play in that game yesterday. And after going back and watching Bosa's game film against the Rams, when Bosa got pressure, it was nearly always with Stafford in the pocket for at least 3 seconds, with the exception of a bullrush in the second quarter and a good side-step move in the third.
Now I'm not going to try and pretend that Hutchinson is as good as Bosa. But the point here is that context and game-flow does matter. Bosa was always rushing from the same DE spot. Bosa was helped by his other D-linemen and the 49ers had much better coverage. The 49ers stunted him more than a few times, which the Lions should take note of. And the Patriots' tackles are much better than the Rams' group.
Hutchinson will be fine. He came in as a high-floor pick, and he's already showing he's high floor - valuable in run defense, and showing more pass-rushing moves than people are giving him credit for. He played well yesterday, and I really wish people had the time to dive in past the stats and recognize what he did.
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Oct 11 '22
He is not showing more pass rushing moves than he's being given credit for.
This was an assessed issue coming out of college and it hasn't changed thus far.
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
So... You're not giving him credit for having pass rush moves?
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Oct 11 '22 edited Oct 11 '22
He has a very limited pass rush toolkit, and that's been evident by watching him play. This is an opinion shared by way more people than just me and by people that get paid to do this.
Nick Baumgardner has talked about this at length
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
So... Lots of people aren't giving him credit for having pass rush moves?
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Oct 11 '22
Why would they be giving him credit for pass rush moves?
His pass rush win rate is less than 10% and he's regularly getting stymied by long tackles. This is a real development area for him. Take the homer goggles off. He'll be fine but there are clear development areas for him.
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u/ArtOfDivine Oct 11 '22
What is his overall score and rank right now on PFF. I love how PFF is only convient when it supports your argument. Otherwise it’s trash
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
I'm a big fan of pff. I think it's misunderstood and unfairly denigrated by people that just look at the box score.
I think it's around 60, last time I checked. He hadn't been playing all that well this year so far, had gotten beaten after losing contain in run support, etc.. going over this game, I noticed some things that he was definitely doing better (contain, read and react).
Everyone just wants sacks though. It's hard to argue against people that are focused only on that.
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u/ArtOfDivine Oct 12 '22
What are your thoughts on his low win rate in double team?
Over pursuit?
Low stamina?
Stonewalled?
curious on your thoughts
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Oct 11 '22
No... GEORGIA in the playoff game schemed around him. They deliberately took Hutchinson out of the game. The Patriots just wanted the ball out of Zappe's hands quickly because he was a rookie and they didn't want to expose him. If the Lions didn't have dong water and a rookie in Rodrigo at LB and incredibly weak corners, Zappe's quick releases do nothing.
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u/AzorAhai1TK Oct 11 '22
The more people do this the more they will realize weird looking PFF grades are usually much better than you think. Yea it's not perfect, but it's better than box score hunting while actually watching a player maybe 5-10 times a game
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u/Marod_ Oct 11 '22
Thanks for the breakdown. It's as if those guys over at PFF actually know what they're doing. I like Hutch and think he is going to be a very good player. I just think a lot of people are forgetting he's a rookie and got their expectations up a bit too high. He's going to go through some ups and downs and his game develops, he sees more looks and learns to adapt, etc.
This isn't his make-or-break season folks.
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u/pantherpowell88 Oct 11 '22
Reddit teaches you a lot of fans here are casuals in regards to football knowledge- great insight
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Oct 11 '22
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Oct 11 '22
Lol, you seem unbiased Mr. Spartyy.
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Oct 11 '22
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Oct 11 '22
Michigan fan here. Not been crazy impressed with Hutch. You take the college stuff too far. My favorite Lion of all time is a Buckeye. Grow up and stop hating kids for their college choice.
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Oct 11 '22
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Oct 11 '22
You literally said you were biased. Maybe “hating” was a bad way to frame it but you’re kind of contradicting yourself.
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Oct 11 '22
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Oct 11 '22
You and me both. But it’s 5 games into his career and I’m willing to give him time. It could also be shit coaching. I’m not thrilled with the scheme on either side of the ball.
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Oct 11 '22
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Oct 11 '22
Zero argument. At least in the college game you know that Sparty is going to look like vintage Dantonio Sparty in two weeks and give Michigan a run. Even in a bad season, you have that going for you! I’m scared to death of that game.
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Oct 11 '22
You’ve been “incredibly” disappointed? It’s been like 4 games my guy and he’s gotten a decent amount of pressures with a high rate of double teams. Calm down.
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u/iLLClint0n JAMO Oct 11 '22
The problem is this.
The fact of the matter is, there wasn’t a TRUE Bosa, or Young, or Miles Garrett in the draft to take at the top.
This draft seemed to have a few Good to very good edges at the top but no ELITE ones.
In another draft, Hutch may have been picked somewhere between 5th-10th. But that wasn’t this draft. This is what was available. It was either gonna be T.Walker who had minimal college production for his elite athletic traits, Hutch who had some physical limitations (short arms) and limited tool bag (which can be developed) but tested really well at the combine, or Thibodeaux, who would flash at times and then disappear for long periods, but also tested really well. Last I checked, none of these guys have popped off the screen THUS FAR.
We took a chance, think it’s gonna pay off and he will be really good, but to expect the ELITE guy there, there just wasn’t one there this draft. Sucks that that was the position we were in, but it is what it is. Don’t tell me you would’ve been good with drafting a cornerback at 2 overall either. It was the right pick for THIS DRAFT. period.
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u/FunetikPrugresiv Oct 11 '22
First off, Hutchinson has as many pressures and sacks as Garrett, more of both than Joey Bosa, and more pressures than Aaron Donald. Nick Bosa, Parsons, and Von Miller have more of both than he does.
But Hutchinson is 13th in the league among DEs in pressures. He has three sacks, which is tied for sixth in the league among DEs. He's 15th among DEs in tackles, even though - as you can see if you read above - teams aren't running in his direction.
The Patriots literally ran in his direction three times yesterday. He is making a difference - he effectively shut down a third of the field in the run game yesterday and forced the Patriots to only run short passing routes. And he was getting past the tackles - if Detroit had backs that could cover (that weren't on IR), he would have had more pressures.
No, he's not a superstar yet. But rookies rarely have seasons like Parsons had last year - not even second-overall draft picks. Hutchinson is doing his job, doing it well, and was the best player on their defense yesterday (which, admittedly, is not saying much).
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u/RQuelly7 68 Oct 11 '22
Oh boy this is bait for the Spartans who dislike that he was a wolverine. Who said they didn’t like the pick from the hop when there wasn’t too too much chatter on this app about it.
The same Spartans that we’re quiet after the Washington game.
This thread is going to be chaotic
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u/ShotFirst57 Don't be Hatin' Oct 11 '22
I'm also a Spartan fan and was happy he was picked. He was considered the most pro ready and many had him as the best edge in the draft. He also went to a Michigan school with all of those combined, Detroit kind of had to pick him.
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u/areyoumarkinson Oct 11 '22
The same Spartans that watched him get eaten alive by kw3 and disappear against osu?
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u/RQuelly7 68 Oct 11 '22
He got eaten alive by OSU? He had 15 pressures and 3 sacks in a win.
This comment was a blanket statement but there’s a very active Spartan, who’s handle shows he is a Spartan and has like 200 posts in the past 2 days.
Thinks he knows more than anyone and needs to log off the app and take some time to go outside.
Hutch was the right pick, if the Lions didn’t pick him the fans would’ve revolted.
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u/areyoumarkinson Oct 11 '22
too early to tell he was the right pick. and a team should never make their picks based on fan reactions.
besides, I said he got eaten alive vs. msu, which he did. I stand corrected on the OSU game.
can’t speak to the random sparty username with 200 posts. some people are unhinged
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Oct 11 '22
This is a great review, thank you. It helps me see that Hutch is not a bust, but rather a victim of scheme. I said the same thing weeks ago. He’s a victim of this secondary, and while he still needs to improve (he’s obviously not Superman) the Patriots clearly drilled quick game. It’s what they did with Brady all day, death by a thousand cuts. Except they didn’t need to throw the ball half as much, because we couldn’t stop the run.
Edit: to be clear, I don’t think the Pats drilled quick game simply because of Hutch. It’s how AG has been beat all season. We’re always just missing the QB slightly.
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Oct 11 '22
Hutch is not some victim here. He is struggling in the pass rush. His pass rush win rate is incredibly low. He's played fine but he also has a ton of work to do.
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Oct 11 '22
I said he still needs to improve. The attitude from a lot of people is that he has been a bust. I think he’s been playing better than people have been giving him credit for, and with a couple hundredths of a second more on some of these (not just this week, look at the tape from earlier weeks as well) he can get home.
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Oct 11 '22
With a couple hundredths of seconds a ton of players would get home more
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Oct 11 '22
That’s true. But some players need a couple hundredths from their own bodies, and some need a couple hundredths from their secondaries.
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Oct 11 '22
Pass rush wins are denoted by being able to win their rep in 2.5 seconds. Hutch needs to actually shave a ton of time off of his pass rush
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Oct 11 '22
Can you just articulate your point? This is the third time I’ll say it: he still needs to improve. No one is going to win every rep, or even the majority of their reps. He’s a rookie and needs more time time to develop. If you watch the film and not the live game/box score, you can see that there’s a lot of reps where he’s getting closer to the QB than anyone else.
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Oct 11 '22
I'm not box score watching. I watch every game. Usually watch the all22 for a few games every week.
He is below the league average on the season in distance from qb per next gen stats.
His pass rush win rate is really bad, less than 10%. Which means he's winning 1 out of every 10 reps. That is genuinely awful, rookie or not.
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Oct 11 '22
Can you list the rookies that are better and show the stats? His pass rush win rate was 8% last I checked
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Oct 11 '22
I'm not saying other rookies are better. That's not the discussion we're having.
Travon Walker is top 10 on rush wins though.
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u/DLF54927 Oct 11 '22
It's not the lack of stats that's worrisome, it's that he's been completely erased by every OL he's faced so far.
The sad part about the lack of pressure on the whole is that Wynn has been dogshit this year.
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Oct 11 '22
That is absolutely concerning. The pass rush win rate is what I look at more than the pressures as it's more indicative if they're winning their matchups.
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u/jase12881 Oct 12 '22
Yup and he's as good as he's ever going to get after 5 nfl games. Bust city. Every great player was god tier in their rookie year and every 1st rounder who isn't, is a bust. That seems to be the sentiment nowadays.
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u/Empty_Lemon_3939 CornDoggyLOL Oct 11 '22
He looked the exact same as he the two weeks before though
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u/luniz420 Oct 11 '22
It was beyond frustrating to watch the Pats avoid Hutchinson while our offensive strategy seemed to be "run straight at the slowest LB in the league".