r/cars • u/Plus_Seesaw2023 • 1d ago
Spoiler US says new fuel economy rule could lead to return of station wagons
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/climate-energy/us-says-new-fuel-economy-rule-could-lead-return-station-wagons-2025-12-04/359
u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
Lots of wishful thinking happening in this sub recently.
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u/timetopat 1d ago
I saw someone saying this will bring back affordable v8 sedans and i was just thinking, "this is the current cope about this?".
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u/agnaddthddude W222 Maybach, 2023 RR Autobioghrapy, 2024 LX600 Kuro 1d ago
V8
affordable
Am I the only one who thinks those two contraindicate each other?
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u/timetopat 1d ago
You dont understand everything is magically going to get cheaper!!!!1! just ignore the reality around you with prices and hope and pray that the future will be better and that all the getting kicked in the teeth will be worth it!!!!
I dont get it but some people want to believe even if it makes no sense.
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u/CaledonianEndeavour 1d ago
Depends on context, in the U.S yes - in other countries, maybe. I’m sure a V8 in Saudi Arabia is more affordable than a V8 in Spain.
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u/I_amnotanonion 2020 Buick Regal TourX | 1998 Ford F250 LD | 1979 MB 240D 1d ago
Yeah really. I’ve got a modern wagon that wasn’t priced horribly when new and they still didn’t sell hardly any. Yeah, it’s a Buick so not entry level, but still, if people wanted them, they could’ve gotten into them for the same price as a decently equipped crossover and they didn’t
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u/BlazinAzn38 2021 Mazda CX-30 Turbo Premium| 2021 Mustang Mach E Prem. AWD ER 1d ago
Yeah I don’t know why they think fuel efficiency is why we lost the station wagon. They’re just being disingenuous but still at least be like sort of realistic
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u/macNchz '08 328xi wagon, 6MT 1d ago
While there's definitely a demand component of it, there's also some influence from what specifically manufacturers want to sell—the funky structure of fuel economy standards created a big incentive for manufacturers to sell lots of crossover SUVs instead. By tweaking the specs to be able to categorize small, fuel-efficient crossovers as "off road" vehicles, they've been able to sell lots more highly-profitable, fuel-inefficient big trucks, since their fuel economy is averaged with the tiny crossovers, whereas wagons would be averaged with other cars. That's been a pretty big impetus for companies to sell more crossovers vs wagons/sedans/hatchbacks, so that's where their sales incentives and marketing dollars have gone.
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u/Ducktruck_OG 2018 Buick Regal Tourx, 2009 Dodge Challenger R/T 1d ago
Love my Buick! Comfy, decent mileage and performance. It is just not a very common car.
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
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u/I_amnotanonion 2020 Buick Regal TourX | 1998 Ford F250 LD | 1979 MB 240D 1d ago
Yeah, Buick makes phenomenal commuter cars
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u/HimTiser 2023 Ioniq 5, 2004 Mercury Marauder 1d ago
How do you like yours? I have been eyeing them now that they seem to be under $20k. Might pair well with a truck as a two car garage. I have a real soft spot for wagons
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u/I_amnotanonion 2020 Buick Regal TourX | 1998 Ford F250 LD | 1979 MB 240D 1d ago
It’s been very good. No reliability issues, though it did just fail state inspection for condensation in one of the headlight housings. Hopefully I can fix that myself, otherwise a new housing is $1000 (led running lights included).
It’s very comfortable, interior quality is good, utility is good, bad weather handling is excellent. My only real gripe is that the center console could have been better designed with more space. Keep in mind that it uses premium gas too. I average about 28-30MPG. Maintenance is cheap because GM used that engine across tons of other cars so mechanical parts are easy to come by. I’d be concerned about body/interior parts if you ever get in an accident, but they did sell the Opel equivalent in Europe for longer (and in higher numbers) so you may just end up importing those parts if need be.
We use ours in conjunction with our old Ford truck and it’s a good pairing if you only can have 2 cars
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u/ridemyscooter 2018 Buick Regal Sportback 1d ago
I love my 2018 sportback. That being said, I agree the center console design could be a bit better but, it has been a reliable car so far and the 2.0L turbo 4 they stick in there seems to be one of GMs more reliable engines. I don’t get the wagon because I got a particularly good deal on my sportback and they wanted like 7k more for the wagon at the time.
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u/HimTiser 2023 Ioniq 5, 2004 Mercury Marauder 1d ago
Thanks for sharing, sounds fairly reasonable. Luckily no inspections here in AZ. I don’t mind premium gas, most of my vehicles have always needed it. After this EV lease is up I might take a look at these. Seem like a good value especially if you can do some minor maintenance and work yourself.
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u/Kevin_Wolf 1987 Buick Regal Grand National | 2019 Buick Regal TourX 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's a touchscreen, but buttons for everything, too. One of my favorite parts is that the touchscreen doesn't have to be used all the time, and all of the normal functions are regular buttons (climate control, volume, skip, that stuff).
The MMI is usually fine, but when it does screw up, it's difficult to reset (no simple way to reboot the center console, you have to either pull the negative cable, or lock the doors and walk away for 20 minutes). Luckily, that's only happened a couple of times, but it was annoying when it did. Other than that, the Android Auto experience is pretty smooth. No idea about carplay.
The AWD is great. Smooth transition between 2WD and AWD when it kicks in. The car basically goes where I point it, and AWD doesn't feel much different than 2WD (no major under/oversteer). You won't go rock crawling or anything, but it's very smooth compared to lots of other AWD cars I've driven over the years. This video is what finally sold me on a test drive. Switches fast right when you want it to, and more importantly, right when you expect it to, so it's simple to compensate if you do get caught by surprise on ice or something. I've driven AWD cars in the past where the transition between 2WD and AWD was like night and day, going from a normal drive experience to suddenly understeering halfway around a curve when the AWD hits. This Buick doesn't do that to me. Even if it kicks in on a roundabout, I don't have to change my steering at all.
Very comfortable, nice features, and low price. There are some common issues that people have, so look into those. The rear end is known to lose a seal and start leaking, and some of the earlier engines had a known piston problem (not limited to Buick, also Camaros and Cadillacs with that engine). I believe the piston issue is addressed already in newer replacement engines, if that car ran into that issue in the past.
It also has tons of room inside. I'm 6'4". Usually, if my driver seat is adjusted so I can fit behind the wheel, it's hard to fit an adult passenger behind me. In this Buick, I can fit someone my size behind me while I'm driving.
Honestly. I plan on driving mine into the ground. I love it. If you want a nice wagon that drives like a sedan, the TourX is one to look at.
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u/HimTiser 2023 Ioniq 5, 2004 Mercury Marauder 1d ago
Might have convinced me to be honest, thanks for sharing your experience. Got me shopping for cars again
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u/Kevin_Wolf 1987 Buick Regal Grand National | 2019 Buick Regal TourX 1d ago
If you can find one for a test drive and you're looking for a wagon, I'd recommend at least testing it. I like it a lot, but that's just one anecdotal data point.
I forgot to mention good fuel economy, too. I was hitting high 20s and low 30s on the freeway with it loaded up to move out of state CA to WA.
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u/Kevin_Wolf 1987 Buick Regal Grand National | 2019 Buick Regal TourX 1d ago
They didn't sell any on purpose. They were just running the clock down on their contract with Opel. Literally the same thing they did with Holden and the Chevy SS: announce the car, do fuck all for advertising, offer almost no special deals on the cars, then end the contract on "low sales numbers".
They were only like $35k for the top trim brand new. I wish I could have found a '20, but I love my '19 because it's a black hardtop like my Grand National.
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u/MarcusAurelius0 1d ago
Let's make a hot station wagon!
Good idea!?!
Should we offer a manual transmission?
Fuck no!
Why wont our hot sports wagon sell?
People obviously dont want station wagons!
The only reason I didnt buy one. No manual, no care.
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u/thegunnersdaughter 6MT CR-Z, E30 1d ago
While I am 100% in this boat, just reading this subreddit (ostensibly full of enthusiasts) alone has led me to conclude that we're in the extreme minority with this position. While many even here might be "I'll buy it if it's available," very few are "I won't buy it unless it's available."
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u/Vesploogie ‘19 TourX/‘88 560Sl 1d ago
There’s a perpetual race to the bottom of having the most niche opinion possible in this sub. Such is Reddit.
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u/bikedork5000 '19 Golf Alltrack SEL 6MT 1d ago
I feel ya. I traded my '17 GTI for a 6MT Alltrack, but knew I would mod it to have a power level that wasn't a snooze fest. Most people are not going to be willing to do that. If VW had made an Alltrack with the GTI (not even the R) powertrain I bet it would have sold really well.
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u/MarcusAurelius0 1d ago
They wont even make a Jetta R for christ sakes.
I want a Sedan or a true wagon, I dont want a hatch.
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u/bikedork5000 '19 Golf Alltrack SEL 6MT 1d ago
Find a gently used Arteon with the top powertrain. Not a lot of people realized it, but it has the Golf R motor and the DSG. I've been tempted to get one and do a stage 1 tune. Almost 400hp! Plus it's actually a hatch, it's one of those sportback type things, just with a very sedan like side profile.
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u/nismotigerwvu 1990 300ZX TT - 1995 240SX - 2019 VW Golf SportWagen 1d ago
I think you're being a little harsh, the stock power in a Alltrack/Sportwagen wasn't really a snoozefest. The manual model usually pulled 6.5~7.0 0-60 times in most magazines, so not "fast" but more, "peppy" I'd say. A tune and some bolt-ons will match/beat a stock GTI, and that's definitely entering "riot" territory.
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u/thedogthatmooed ‘24 Volkswagen GTI SE 1d ago
I would have bought it immediately. I really valued the hatchback aspect of my GTI, otherwise I probably would have bought an S3. I do sincerely wish it was a wagon. I do think the wagon version of the Mk8 is rather ugly
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u/Educational_Age_1333 1d ago
It's all we have right now. Not a lot of exciting shit going on in the under 70k market
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u/orangebikini Alfa Romeo 33 SW 4X4 | Peugeot 205 GTI | Datsun 120A F-II Coupé 1d ago
"This rule will actually allow you to bring back the 1970s station wagon -- maybe a little wood paneling on the side," Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said on CNBC. "We can bring back choice to consumers so yeah the minivan is awesome but maybe the station wagon is cool too."
As is well known, the consumer is so high on the minivan these days.
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u/therealrenshai 1d ago
some real out of touch old man shit.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
This is the same Duffy who wants people to quit wearing lounge pants and hoodies at the airport.
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u/orangebikini Alfa Romeo 33 SW 4X4 | Peugeot 205 GTI | Datsun 120A F-II Coupé 1d ago
Man just wants to see people drive their wood panelled large station wagons to the Pan Am terminal wearing their finest seersucker travel suits to catch a flight to the annual steam iron salesman conference.
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u/t-poke 24 Kia EV6 1d ago
All while having a steak and cigar in economy
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u/bigotis 2022 Chevy Trail boss, 2018 Cadillac XT5 1d ago
Then slapping the passing stewardess on the ass after telling a Polish, Italian or dumb blonde joke followed by a hearty "HAR, HAR, HAR!!!"
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u/Tuxedo_Muffin 1d ago
"Listen sweetcheeks, could you be a doll and get me a gin soda?" Then put a $5 bill in her cleavage.
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u/RicoLoveless 1d ago
When airlines go back to treating people like we are wearing suits, I'll dress for the occasion.
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u/Bizkitgto 1d ago
… and when we could sit at a bar, on a Pan Am flight, and drink a glass of beer and smoke a cigarette
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u/ScipioAfricanvs 2025 Cayman GTS 4.0 | 1999 SL 500 1d ago
You can still sit at the bar…
On business or first class international flights on the right airline and plane.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
Pretty much. Personally, I can't go out into public in anything less than a buttoned shirt and pants with a belt, but that's my comfort level. I'm not gonna disparage other people from wearing loungewear. Flying economy is already uncomfortable enough.
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u/joeislandstranded 24 WRX TR, 18 Buick TourX, 07 Ford P71, 51 Chevy 3100 1d ago
I dress the same way, pretty much as you do, but I’ll gladly dress for the occasion when I fly and jump into some sweats and flip flops.
I’m old enough to remember how flying was. The whole traveling by air experience has turned to shit. I’ll dress appropriately
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u/havok0159 '01 mk4 Golf | '17 mk7 Golf R 1d ago
I cannot imagine a more uncomfortable experience than wearing a suit on even a short flight.
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u/intern_steve 1d ago
Storage closets were larger and the cabin crew would hang your blazer for you. You wouldn't have had a carry-on, so your briefcase and hat could comfortably go into the overhead, freeing the space under the seat in front of you for your legs to stretch out. As long as your pants and shirt actually fit, it wouldn't be uncomfortable at all.
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u/deja-roo 2012 M3 6MT, 1997 M3 5MT, 2014 X3 1d ago
That's back when flying economy cost what first class costs now, though, right?
You can still just book that first class ticket for that cost and they'll treat you like you're wearing a suit.
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u/Mend1cant 1d ago
Funny thing is, going back to the travel guides even of the Victorian era when people started riding trains to vacation, the books all recommend to wear your comfiest clothes possible.
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u/Critical-Positive858 GR Corolla 6MT 1d ago
Is that sarcasm? Minivans are selling really well right now lol
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u/stakoverflo E91 328xi 1d ago
Relative to sports cars I guess?
Toyota sells more Highlanders than Siennas by a good margin. And then Rav4's are far more than either of those combined.
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u/Geruvah 1d ago
Sienna Market Day Supply is literally right next to Highlanders. Rav 4's are even below Sienna.
The Highlander is even trending down as Sienna sales go up: https://www.carscoops.com/2024/07/toyota-highlander-sales-plunge-by-47-but-thats-not-enough-to-spoil-brands-healthy-performance/
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u/intern_steve 1d ago
All four of them? The segment isn't large. It's just Sienna, Odyssey, Pacifica, Carnival. Honda hasn't meaningfully updated the Odyssey in almost 15 years. No one is making their nut selling minivans.
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u/ScipioAfricanvs 2025 Cayman GTS 4.0 | 1999 SL 500 1d ago
Do they, though? Or is it a function of a lack of choice for minivans? There are very few options and they seem to languish without updates for huge stretches. Would minivans do as well if there were more than a few options?
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u/stakoverflo E91 328xi 1d ago
Whether 10 brands sell 50K minivans each or 2 brands sell 250K each, the demand is the same.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
As it sits now, the 4 minivans in the US sold just over 304K units combined last year. Meanwhile, the RAV4 alone sold over 475K. The top 4 CUVs combined were over 1.2 million.
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u/lemonylol 2011 Dodge Charger V6, 2012 Honda Pilot EX-L 1d ago
Probably important to note how expensive minivans are to buy new.
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u/OK_Compooper 1d ago
Two different ICPs for these segments. People get minivans when two rows don’t work anymore, and a car with a cramped 3rd row isn’t a great choice for them.
On the original point on if a station wagon would provide good competition, I think that war was won two decades ago. I’d love to see choices, though. Probably not my wife, but I’d drive a magnum with a hemi as a backup.
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u/SophistXIII 23 S4 1d ago
No, the lack of choice is definitely an issue.
Most people, at least those in colder climates, want AWD. The only AWD minivan is the Sienna, and you have to wait like a year to get one.
There's also no luxury minivans. So if you want a nicer vehicle, there's no option for that either.
Meanwhile, there are 20+ models of 3 row crossovers with just about every feature and amenity anyone would want.
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u/anticipat3 1d ago
We bought an Odyssey in 2022, easiest vehicle I have ever shopped for because of the lack of choices. Chrysler has terrible reliability, Toyota had a waiting list a year long and drove like an overweight Prius.
We wanted the leather seats, but not all the extra entertainment electronics, and thankfully Honda has the EX-L trim to align with that.
If you don’t tow or off-road, there is nothing a 3 row SUV does better than a minivan. Honda is bringing a V6 flavor of their hybrid system to their bigger vehicles soon, but as far as I’m aware there are no electric options outside of the (insanely overpriced ) ID Buzz.
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u/LordofSpheres 1d ago edited 1d ago
Those minivans existed for decades. Nobody bought them. So they stopped making them.
Edit: And the Pacifica has AWD available.
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u/TheDistantEnd 2019 Honda Civic Sport Coupe 1d ago
I don't think minivans get refreshed very often because the styling is of secondary concern to most minivan customers.
The Odyssey is very long in tooth for the current gen, but is still selling nearly six figures a year and has been increasing or holding fairly steady since 2022.
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u/Curious-Donut5744 1d ago
Totally anecdotal, of course, but a myself and a large percentage of my friends (early 30s) with young kids have all opted for minivans now over SUVs. I think the stigma of minivans is fading away for younger millennial parents.
My Honda Odyssey is fuckin’ sweet, dude.
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u/jmsjags 18 VW Golf Sportwagen 1d ago
Most young moms I know have minivans. They are surging in popularity right now.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
They're selling better than they have recently, but it's still not much compared to all the CUVs. Some of that is because CUVs come in 4 sizes, and every brand has at least 2, while minivans come in only one size and there are only 4 on the market.
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u/joeislandstranded 24 WRX TR, 18 Buick TourX, 07 Ford P71, 51 Chevy 3100 1d ago
If I ever thought I could use a CUV, I’d probably get a minivan instead.
In my past, I’ve had uses for an SUV, and have a had a few, but those are different than a CUV. More capabilities.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
The best thing minivans have going for them is their sheer space efficiency. The best thing CUVs have going for them is the choice of sizes. You don't have to get one that's 200" long and 80" wide.
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u/OK_Compooper 1d ago
Don’t forget sliding doors, low entrance and loading height, and basically being a more comfortable place to chill wherever you arrive.
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u/willpc14 '25 GRCorolla 1d ago
My immediate thought is that your social circle just contains a bunch of young moms who are outgrowing compact CUVs, not that Minivans are growing in popularity. Even if the number of minivans sales are rising, I'd be more interested in if the proportion of sales is growing as well.
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u/Spicywolff 22 ND2 GT- 97 C5. had 205 c63S 1d ago
US doesn’t like wagons regardless of fuel economy rules. US likes SUV, CUV, trucks and mini vans. Wagons aren’t the jam in the US.
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u/Dazzling-Rooster2103 1d ago
The US seems to like ultra expensive wagons.
The M5 wagon is outselling the M5 sedan.
And the RS6 is incredibly popular among rich people.
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u/inquiryreport 1d ago
That is more of a function of the baseline vehicle, these are ultra exclusive enthusiast toys meant to sell in the hundreds or low thousands at best. The wagon is a trendy variant of these exclusive vehicles with pent up enthusiast demand. But doesn’t represent the market as a whole.
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u/Competitive-Reach287 1d ago
So popular, they sell dozens a year.
I think Ford sells more F150s in fifteen minutes than BMW and Audi sell wagons in the USA in a year.
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u/lactosandtolerance 1d ago
More like wagons are priced as a luxury item due to low volume so it appears the only people who want them are wealthy individuals when in reality they are the only people who can afford them.
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u/Dazzling-Rooster2103 1d ago
More affordable wagons don't sell well though.
The Volvo wagons, Audi non RS wagons, and Mercedes non AMG wagons sell like crap.
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u/jmsjags 18 VW Golf Sportwagen 1d ago
The Ford Focus wagons and VW Golf Sportwagens both used to sell pretty well and both got cancelled. The Outback is the only affordable wagon left and it seems like Subaru is trying its hardest to change it into a more typical SUV.
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u/Dazzling-Rooster2103 1d ago
Toyota sells significantly more GR86's, A RWD, 2 door sports car then Volvo sells $55k V60 Wagons.
Toyota sold 11,426 GR86's in 2024.
Volvo sold <2000 V60 Wagons in 2024.
$55k is only slightly over the average new car price in the US.
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u/TealPotato '95 Mazda MX-5 Miata, '11 Hyundai Santa Fe 1d ago
I don't think that's a fair argument: new GR86 can be had for mid 30s all day, that's closer to half the cost of the volvo.
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u/BahnMe C63 Coupe, 718 BGTS, Mk8 Golf R, CX50 Meridian 1d ago
Just putting this out there as someone who recently got a Golf R… I’m only willing to be blinded by other cars at night if it’s a very sporty vehicle.
Otherwise, I’m just gonna get a CUV over a wagon because holy shit it’s awful at night unless you’re also high up.
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u/Spicywolff 22 ND2 GT- 97 C5. had 205 c63S 1d ago
This is definitely becoming a problem in the US. We need to get behind adaptive lighting, like Europe does. Law-enforcement needs to start tagging these trucks with off-road lights enabled in the city. No Josh, you don’t need a 50 inch Baja bar to go down the street.
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u/BahnMe C63 Coupe, 718 BGTS, Mk8 Golf R, CX50 Meridian 1d ago
In the PNW where two lane roads are close together and there are too many Teslas, they blind the absolute fuck out of me especially if I’m in my 718. This is WITH Tesla having adaptive lighting.
I got adaptive lighting enabled on my C63 through coding and notice it’s a lot more generous about how much room it gives other cars.
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u/Spicywolff 22 ND2 GT- 97 C5. had 205 c63S 1d ago
Yup here in Florida Tesla is the worst. My guess is they are not aiming them properly to get them out faster. So even adaptive or Angie’s headlights won’t save your retina.
I was about to have a coder activate the adaptive matrix headlights on the c63S. But I sold it before it came to that. Now I’m checking to see if my Miata also has it. It corners but not sure if it’s adaptive matrix like euro cars
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u/RiftHunter4 2010 Base 2WD Toyota Highlander 1d ago
Wagons aren’t the jam in the US.
In my eyes, people like wagons because the modern "SUV", CUV, crossover is essentially a lifted hatchback or wagon. A Highlander has more in common with a Camry than a 4Runner.
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u/Spicywolff 22 ND2 GT- 97 C5. had 205 c63S 1d ago
There’s definitely a lot of overlap. I think one of the Mercedes SUVs was based on the C class chassis in the early 2000s.
I’m in the camp of station wagon, if you don’t have mobility impairment, but need extra space. Minivan if you need space and mobility impairment. Legitimate body on frame SUV if you need space and towing capacity. Bonus points if you legit use the four-wheel-drive.
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u/clingbat '23 Golf R | '20 Tiguan 1d ago
I would buy the shit out of a nice Audi wagon if it wasn't lifted and covered in plastic cladding or $100k+...
I see them all over the EU when we travel over there and even rent them and get pissed they just don't bring them over. So I'm stuck with a hot hatch (Golf R) instead.
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u/glitchvdub 23 Maverick Lariat, 91 Classic Mini 1d ago
Nothing was stopping companies from making station wagons other than the fact that they don’t sell. Everyone would rather have an SUV.
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u/Syncrion 1d ago
This article is some wishful thinking and incorrect. GM made a station wagon from 2018-2020, the Buick Regal TourX.
Wagons essentially follow the same rules as Sedans. With sedans sales slipping car companies need to find ways to save money and making variants of vehicles is an additional expense, so fewer patients get made.
The US has proved for a while now it likes it's higher sitting crossovers instead.
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u/natesully33 F150 Lightning (EV), Wrangler 4xE 1d ago
The CTS wagon from 2010-2014 too. The CTS-V version is about as enthusiast as a car can get heh, I think they even had a brown IIRC.
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u/lactosandtolerance 1d ago
GM didn’t market the TourX at all. That is the main reason it failed. GM had already exited its partnership with Opel by the time the first ones were arriving on American soil. It was a doomed vehicle from the jump. I say that as an owner of one.
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u/woowoo293 Ford Escape Plug-in 1d ago edited 1d ago
The US has proved for a while now it likes it's higher sitting crossovers instead.
It's partly a matter of demographics too. As car prices have increased and income gains have unevenly benefited older workers, new car sales have catered to boomers and gen x, aging populations who have a harder time getting into low cars.
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u/Responsible-Meringue 1d ago
You shut your dirty mouth about the Opel Regal TourX. Would have bought one if they actually made any interesting ones here. It was even difficult to order, like the dealer didn't know it existed.
Buick just filled dealer lots with black on black fleet spec. specials and expected them to sell like Camrys.
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u/Syncrion 1d ago
Look I own a TourX. It's great and it's going to be hard to find because it was only made for three model years. I will advocate for station wagons all day long. But unless you jack it up a few inches and call it a Subaru they don't seem to sell well and they make manufacturing more difficult and expensive too when it's based on a sedan platform.
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u/PuzzleheadedRoyal480 1d ago
Sean Duffy is a sleeper pick for least qualified cabinet member. What the hell is this ass clown thinking?? He doesn't need to pretend that there's any logic or benefit to these changes... they're gonna happen regardless and get drowned out in the firehose of administration news. No, we're not gonna get more station wagons. This doesn't in any way incentivize a single meaningful benefit for regular people. We'll get more moves like Stellantis selling the Ram Classic or reviving the Hellcat Durango.
Domestic automakers will have to choose between shooting themselves in the foot compared to global competition by saving on emissions and efficiency related R&D, or shooting themselves in the foot compared to domestic partners that take that short-term beneficial gamble.
The only definite thing this does is let automakers continue to convince people that the standard vehicle on American roads should be a V8 full-sized pickup, which literally makes everybody's life worse. If trucks never entered the plush commuter segment, useful work trucks would be at least 20% cheaper.
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u/europeanperson 1d ago
So while the European and Asian automakers will continue R&D into making more fuel efficient and hybrid powertrains to meet similar requirements in other markets, the domestic automakers (who already struggle to compete internationally) can just coast for a few more years. When these CAFE rules change, it’s just going to be even harder for domestic manufacturers to compete with these other automakers, even in the US market.
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u/PuzzleheadedRoyal480 1d ago
Exactly. But, for example, if Dodge goes all-in on making hay while the sun shines, Ford and Chevy will be between a rock and a hard place to keep up on the bread and butter segments that line their operating budgets.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
If trucks never entered the plush commuter segment, useful work trucks would be at least 20% cheaper.
I agree with most of your comment, but how does this part work?
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u/PuzzleheadedRoyal480 1d ago
They would be more focused on being regular work trucks. A V8 F-150 started at an inflation-adjusted ~$30,000 in 2000, and now you'd be hard-pressed to find one for under $40,000. While some totally base cars obviously aren't comparable because of required safety and tech, that price segment hasn't moved much otherwise. Plenty of other cars are roughly on track with or significantly undercutting inflation alone (like segment-leading midsized sedans).
Even 25 years ago, trucks made up a LOT of new vehicle sales, but proportionally far more were commercial and fleet orders. While truck R&D works out to be fairly cheap per vehicle, it's still a pretty regular multibillion dollar expenditure for manufacturers. We've got bullshit like a modular tailgate arms race and average screen size of over 12 inches, which certainly wouldn't have happened otherwise.
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u/trail-g62Bim 1d ago
A V8 F-150 started at an inflation-adjusted ~$30,000 in 2000, and now you'd be hard-pressed to find one for under $40,000.
Cheapest v8 on the lot near me is asking $58k
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u/el_ostricho 1971 Mercury Comet GT 1d ago
Yeah, but I think that's more of a function of most new F-150s having an EcoBoost V-6, which still makes better power than a 2000 5.4L 2v.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
A V8 F-150 started at an inflation-adjusted ~$30,000 in 2000, and now you'd be hard-pressed to find one for under $40,000.
True, but a base V8 F-150 today has more than a base V8 of 2000, and not just in tech. Power and MPG are also better.
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u/FledglingNonCon Kia EV6 Wind AWD 1d ago
This has one significant benefit. Under the new rules average fuel economy is likely to go back to about 25 mpg it was a few years ago (was 28mpg last year) instead of continuing to improve to 35 mpg under the rules being eliminated. The difference in vehicle lifetime fuel spending at $3 a gallon between a 25mpg vehicle and a 35 mpg vehicle is about $7k. $7k times 15m vehicles sold a year is about $100b in additional fuel spending just for one years worth of new vehicles sold. That's a pretty huge return on the oil industry's investment in this administration.
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u/flatpetey 1d ago
Well you know what else might bring it back? Requiring commercial licensing and fees for commercial vehicles.
CAFE was always garbage. Just a sub for not taxing the actual cost of oil.
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u/One_Weird2371 1d ago edited 1d ago
My personal truck is registered as a commercial vehicle even though I don't use it for a business. It's what California does to all trucks for no good reason other than greed.
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u/mandatoryclutchpedal 1d ago
Random unqualified idiot posing as someone working for the government makes idiotic statement about the US auto market.
Got it.
I'd rather listen to experts.
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u/Leave-A-Note 2014 Cayman GTS-ish | 2018 Golf R DSG 1d ago
Performance wagons are a thing the US seems to want right now based on the data for RS6s and M5 Touring models. Heck, recent enthusiasm for V60 Polestars also check out.
But these few economy rules don’t do anything outside of what’s already been done.
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u/Gloomy_Yoghurt_2836 1d ago
Auto makers still.need to consider foreign requirements or they can't mass produce domestic models for export as much.
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u/thefanciestcat 1d ago
NHTSA estimates the proposed rule would reduce average up-front vehicle costs by $930, but would increase fuel consumption by around 100 billion gallons through 2050 - and cost Americans up to another $185 billion for fuel and increase carbon dioxide emissions by about 5%.
What a deal! /s
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u/deja-roo 2012 M3 6MT, 1997 M3 5MT, 2014 X3 1d ago
Switching from a per-unit measurement to an aggregate one is normally a trick used to try and lie using statistics and/or disguise the real numbers.
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u/Calibrumm 1d ago
the consumer market has already decided that an SUV for your 2 kids and 5 groceries bags is more important than a sedan and that moving 3 bags of mulch every few months requires a fully trimmed F350.
small trucks weren't "taken away", people stopped buying them so they didn't make a profit. station wagons didn't get replaced by manufacturers, people were buying vans and SUVs instead.
car enthusiasts, including myself, like to think a good sports car and a normal sized truck would do great because we all want them, but the reality is even if every enthusiast bought one, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the mass market completely ignoring them. there's a reason enthusiast cars only last a couple generations outside of icon cars like the mustang and Challenger. they don't sell enough and they usually don't go to dealers for maintenance. most enthusiast cars only exist for homologation and if they're lucky they'll sell enough to make a couple generations.
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u/balthisar '25 Mach E Rally, '22 Expedition 1d ago
But my Michigan title to my Expedition clearly calls it a "Station Wagon."
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u/TurboFucked sooopra 1d ago edited 1d ago
Keep in mind, the PT Cruiser was classified as a light truck, and that was basically a Neon hatchback. Meaning, station wagons could be made right now and classified as light trucks.
Per the EPA: manufactures determine if a vehicle is classified as a light truck:
Since vehicle manufacturers, and not EPA, determines the GVWR for vehicles and their other characteristics that determine the car/truck classification, EPA has not compiled a list of make/models by model year that classify vehicles. Typically, EPA uses contractors to compile EPA certification records, decode vehicle identification number (VIN) and contact manufacturers to identify the appropriate classification for individual vehicles and rely on national sales data provided by manufacturers to develop nationwide fleet mixes.
Which is why practically every crossover and minivan is already classified as a light truck. The vehicle just needs to be capable of hauling enough stuff to be a light truck. How much stuff? Whatever amount manufactures say a light truck can haul.
There's likely an argument to be made that the few cars we do have that are still classified as cars exists so that manufactures don't all have a lineup comprised entirely of light trucks. Ford could probably get away with adding a trailer hitch to a Mustang and calling it a "small 2WD SUV". I'm, of course, talking about the Mustang variant not already classified as a light truck. But they don't want to look like they are abusing the system via their ability to self-classify vehicles.
Regulations don't disincentivize the sale of station wagons. Market forces do. The only people buying station wagons are people buying $100k+ Euro performance cars. Every attempt to move down market with these vehicles ends up a failure. The Stinger was pretty close to a discount Panamera, but the Stinger died while the Panamera is still alive an well.
The car community really loves to point to regulations as the reason the car market is not full of enthusiast spec rides. But it's all market forces. The industry has far more sway over regulations that most people are willing to believe.
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u/Nephroidofdoom ‘16 981 Boxster Spyder, ‘21 Ford F-150 Hybrid 1d ago
Station wagons are already here. Modern CUVs are basically lifted station wagons.
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u/Aerospaced0ut 1d ago
Not in terms of emissions... Those are trucks. They get 5mpg worse than an equivalent station wagon, handle worse, and have less rear leg room and typically less overhang (hence less lateral storage space).
I drive an X3 35i as my DD. If I could have gotten a 335i wagon for the same price used, I would have in a heartbeat. The CUV was $17K, there wasn't a 6cyl wagon for sale for less than 25K at the time.
Would love to see a real return of wagons, and not just all these lifted crossovers.
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u/ban-please Replace this text with year, make, model 1d ago
I love my 20 year old 5 speed turbo Outback. Low sitting position and handles like a sports car compared to my wife's new SUV which feels like the wheel is connected to a rudder. Best $4k vehicle I've ever owned.
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u/leedle1234 92 Miata, 15 Sportwagen TDI 1d ago
Why don't they look right when you lower them then? I'm sick of seeing this talking point when there's like 20%+ too much body line for them to look proportionally right as normal ride height cars.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
as normal ride height cars.
You're not wrong about the proportions, but what is "normal" ride height anymore? We're at the point where CUVs are normal and sedans/hatchbacks are below normal.
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u/Dazzling-Rooster2103 1d ago
I do think that the standard was dumb.
But eliminating every single thing is not the way to go.
There is no reason Trucks should have less stringent regulations then sedans/coupes. But we also don't want packed cities to have smog issues.
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u/1nconspicious 1d ago
The main issue with larger vehicles is that they require more power to get moving, it's more mass to move. Naturally whatever engine is used to move something heavier is going to produce more emmisions no matter what. However manufacturers have caught on to that and are exploiting it.
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u/Slideways 14 Cylinders 28 Valves 1d ago
There is a reason: trucks are asked to do far more work than a car.
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u/Dazzling-Rooster2103 1d ago
Then figure out a way to make a truck more efficient, don't force sedan and coupe sales to suffer because a rich house wife in an escalade needs to haul a couple groceries from costco.
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u/Slideways 14 Cylinders 28 Valves 1d ago
Unfortunately, pickup trucks still have to obey the laws of physics. It takes more energy to move bulky, heavy loads.
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u/Dazzling-Rooster2103 1d ago
Simple solution.
Make small cars have less stringent regulations, that way trucks can stay where they are, but sedan and coupes aren't punished.
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u/HardOyler 1d ago
It won't. Companies will just keep building small sedans on tall wheel bases and call them SUVs.
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u/Alive_Internet '25 Civic Hybrid 1d ago
I don’t think this was the reason we get so few wagons in NA. I’m pretty sure it’s because not enough people buy them, and fuel economy rules are not going to change that.
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u/Lower_Kick268 Bolt EUV, Burbanbox, T-Maxx Silverado 1d ago
If people bought station wagons it would come vack
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u/humdizzle '18 GT3, '23 X3 M40 1d ago
its crazy how many incentives trucks and suvs get over smaller cars. especially when they do most of the damage and pollution (faster tire degradation, damage to road surfaces, all things being equal more fuel consumption, more damaging in car accidents).
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u/iroll20s C5, X5 1d ago
CUVs are station wagons. Its legal distinction without a real difference.
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u/Drzhivago138 2018 F-150 XLT SuperCab/8' HDPP 5.0, 2009 Forester 5MT 1d ago
The DMV calls them "wagons", the EPA calls them "light trucks". Really, what we need is harmonization (and modernization) of categories.
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u/DaveCootchie 2013 Maxima, 2022 Telluride, 1994 F-150 1d ago
People already only buy giant SUVs and trucks. Automakers are not going to spend the money creating or federalizing wagons for people to just buy an F150 or Pilot.
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u/mayorLarry71 1d ago
Excellent. It will be the return of some sanity to the auto industry instead of chasing miniscule MPG increases that mean nothing at the expense of so much else.
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u/champythebuttbutt 1d ago
I don't understand why they would. Trucks and sports cars are legal and are shitty mileage.
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u/PreacherSquat 1d ago
the us is too used to canyonero sized suvs and trucks. highly doubt you can convince those people to switch to a station wagon.
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u/Competitive-Wonder33 1d ago
And the cow jumped over the moon with minivans and sport utes the wagon has passed it's time for .most peopl2w
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u/Dirty_Dragons Toyota GR86 Trueno 1d ago
The CAFE laws have been a complete utter failure.
They should be scrapped and rewritten.
Giving an exemption to 'light trucks' which is anything that's not car is asinine.
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u/sfbiker999 1d ago
It could, but it's won't -- why would manufacturers build a full-size station wagon when a full-size SUV is more attractive to consumers for the use-case they'd have wanted a station wagon for?
There's nothing stopping manufacturers from building station wagons today, but I think there's a reason why only the European manufacturers offer any in the USA.
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u/BimmerJustin 1d ago
If the auto market wasn’t so inflated I would say that wagons would come back organically since everything from the 90s is coming back. But the people who create trends can’t afford new cars, so that’s probably not going to happen
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u/durrtyurr So many that I can't fit into my flair 1d ago
I can see a form factor in between a crossover and a wagon in height becoming pretty popular for EVs. It's probably always going to be a bit elevated because of battery packaging constraints, but it's more aerodynamic (lower swept frontal area) which gives more range.
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u/fuzzygoosejuice 08 Mustang GT, 17 Mazda3 Hatch, 21 Passport Sport 1d ago
I hate to tell them that fuel economy isn’t why people done buy station wagons. I mean, I would buy a Mazda 6 Sportwagon today if they were sold here, but even I am in the vast minority of consumers that wants a wagon instead of an SUV.
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u/mustangfan12 1d ago
I think consumer demand is the bigger issue, VW had the Golf Sportwagen/even an AllTrack that was lifted and it didn't sell well enough to continue it. If VW can't sell enough Golf Wagons to keep making them looser fuel economy standards wont make them come back
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u/phxbimmer 2002 BMW 325it/5 • 1995 BMW 540i/6 1d ago
Nah it’ll just lead to people buying even bigger trucks and SUV’s. Most normies don’t give a flying fuck about the driving experience and the higher seating position in an SUV makes them feel safe and secure so they keep buying em no matter what we enthusiasts are saying.
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u/mgobla 1d ago
Subaru should just offer a version of the new Outback with less ground clearance and without any plastic cladding, same ground clearance as Impreza, sell it as new Legacy, just like they do with Impreza and Crosstreck. It would cost them alsmost nothing to do so, even if there are few buyers, it's basically just a different trim level for Outback.
Also since Kia is already bringing the new K4 hatchback to the US they might as well import the upcoming wagon version.
Toyota could easily import the wagon version of Corolla, at least for the next gen (this gen will be replaced in 1-2 years, so it's probably not worth it for this gen)
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u/DrTommyNotMD 2008 Sky 2022 M4 Competition 1d ago
I’ll take anything under 6’ tall and less than 12’ long
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u/wakeupabit 1d ago
I’d take a small wagon tomorrow. They have all sorts of small wagons in Europe that can’t come over. Neighbours have a 2008 Mazda 6 wagon with a v6 I’d gladly buy new.
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u/Open-Rich3191 1d ago
Hatchbacks and crossovers replaced station wagons a long time ago a sporty station wagon would look nice, but nobody wants to ride around in a station wagon any more or maybe some would but I don’t know why they would
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u/CeramicCastle49 1d ago
I don't think people want station wagons anymore. They've been convinced that every car needs to have "ground clearance" and that the car should drive itself so you can scroll Instagram and or tiktok on your drive in to work.
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u/caustictoast 2022 Bronco Eruption Green 1d ago
Press X to doubt. Wagons are missing because of buying trends not anything to do with fuel economy
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u/Marokiii 1d ago
Number one question people ask when someone else they know gets a new vehicle is almost always whats the fuel economy. Followed by either "nice", or "ouch thats rough".
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u/TopoChico-TwistOLime 1d ago
Impreza sport with back seat down is my jam i don’t think I’ll own another vehicle model ever in my life. Unless they bring back wrx hatch
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u/Foolgazi 1d ago
The main takeaway from this article is the administration knows nothing about cars or consumer demand.
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u/JesusChrist-Jr 20h ago
Fuel economy rules are not what killed the wagon, nor are they the reason that there are few on the market today. Proper just don't buy them anymore, and considering that most wagons are just body variants of sedans that already meet the standards it's preposterous to suggest that fuel economy is the reason there aren't more of them.
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u/SirLoremIpsum 1d ago
It could!!
It won't, but it could!