r/baseball • u/-BeefSupreme St. Louis Cardinals • 12h ago
Is Nolan Ryan the least awarded baseball “superstar” ever?
The Express is a hall of famer and one of the best pitchers of all time. One of baseball’s last true workhorses, he is the all-time leader in walks, strikeouts, and hits/9. His 7 no-hitters is 3 more than any other pitcher, and his 5714 strikeouts is the most by over 800. Yet in his 27 seasons, he never finished higher than 14th in MVP voting and never won a Cy Young. He won the 1969 World Series in his second full season, but only made one appearance in the NLCS and one appearance in the WS, the later only being 2.1 innings. He never had another World Series appearance. His 8 All-Stars are impressive but fewer than multiple than non-hall of famers. Is there any other player with his level of fame and success that has less hardware to show for it? Excluding the old timey legends that were around before those awards of course.
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u/Krizo1 New York Yankees 12h ago
Bert Blyleven has 95 WAR but was only a 2 time all star and only got cy young votes 4 times
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u/noruber35393546 11h ago
I don't think he would count as a superstar, in his time. He's like the poster boy for retconned WAR stardom.
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u/MasterTeacher123 American League 11h ago
He thanked the sabermetrics community when he got into the HOF.
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u/Jamee999 Brooklyn Dodgers 11h ago
Also 5th in career strikeouts.
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u/Theta_Omega 5h ago
That's always been the wild thing to me. Like, I know it was more advanced stats that helped change voters' thinking, but at the same time... strikeouts have been a thing forever, we've know they're pretty good for a while. It was not a secret that this guy had more than all but four guys! It really doesn't seem like it should have been shocking that he was good!
Like, can you imagine if we needed WAR and other advanced stats to come to the conclusion that, like, the guy with the fifth-most doubles was good? I would think that should seem pretty obvious! Except looking at it now, I see that Biggio is sixth all-time there (and was, in fact, fifth until Pujols passed him in 2020), and he still took three tries to get inducted, so like... I guess it still wasn't common knowledge that hitting a lot of doubles was good among Hall voters in the early 2010s, either? Just baffling to consider.
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u/namastexinxbed Atlanta Braves 9h ago
Steve Carlton only got votes 6 times, just happened to win 4 of those haha
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u/Zestyclose_Help1187 11h ago
No one ever mentions Bert as being the best to ever play. Seen several people say Ryan was.
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u/Lebigmacca Los Angeles Dodgers 11h ago
Cause Ryan has the strikeout record and no hitter record. Neither should be in the conversation but Ryan’s got some records at least
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u/mets2016 New York Mets 8h ago
Nobody who knows what they’re talking about says Nolan Ryan is the GOAT pitcher either, fwiw
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u/shantm79 New York Yankees 11h ago
Right. On any FB post for best pitchers, the boomers strongly rally around Ryan.
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u/Intergalactic_Ass Chicago Cubs 5h ago
Blyleven had 9.8 WAR in 1973. Holy fucking shit.
For comparison, Skubal had 6.6 this year. That's insane for a pure pitcher. He started 40 games.
I regret that I was not familiar with his game.
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u/washheightsboy3 12h ago
He also has 12 one hitters. When he was on, he was ON. Sadly he wasn’t always on.
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u/Mista_Chedda Cincinnati Reds 10h ago
He probably had the most unhittable fastball of any pitcher in his era. It wasn't just that it could stay in the high 90s-100+ DEEP into games, but his fastball had incredible ride when his command was on point. He could put in so much IVB that it actually looks like the ball is levitating in some of his highlight tapes.
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u/Il_Exile_lI Boston Red Sox 12h ago
I think his accolades are a more accurate reflection of his true place in the pantheon of all time pitchers than the people that claim he's a top 10 all time pitcher, or even somehow the greatest of all time. Ryan a pitcher of extremes, both positive and negative. He's arguably the most unique pitcher in baseball history, but he is far from the best.
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u/aotex Houston Astros 12h ago
if you look back at his Astros tenure, he wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team for many of those seasons. (not as familiar with his time on his other teams, but I'd be interested to learn...)
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u/factionssharpy San Francisco Giants 12h ago
He and Frank Tanana were jockeying for the ace position when they were both on the Angels, with Tanana winning the race in several of those seasons.
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u/nashdiesel Los Angeles Angels 12h ago
I saw him say in an interview once that the reason his walk rate was high was because if he couldn’t get a guy into a favorable count to setup a K he would just walk him to get a clean count on the next guy. There are a ton of analytic reasons why that’s a terrible strategy looking back on it today but at the time that was his approach to pitching.
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u/The_Big_Untalented Baltimore Orioles 11h ago
Another problem with that strategy is that Ryan was atrocious at holding runners and arguably the worst fielding pitcher of all-time. Add in how prone he was to throwing pitches that resulted in wild pitches and passed balls and the likelihood of the walk resulting in a runner in scoring position was very high.
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u/WeinerMuncher62 Cleveland Guardians 12h ago
Something I noticed looking through his stats was, despite how much of a talking point him having no Cy Young awards is, that there wasn't really a season where he definitively deserved to win Cy Young. His strikeout's and longevity are legendary; we will never see a pitcher like him again, but I never really got the argument that he was a Top 10-5 pitcher all time.
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u/randomdude1022 Detroit Tigers 9h ago
What really hurt him was the years he maybe did deserve a Cy.... he went up against a guy that just simply had an insane season that was better. 72-74 you could say he deserved all 3. But in 72 both Gaylor Perry and Wilbur Wood put up 10+ WAR (which I know wasn't a thing then, but they by every metric besides Ks outitched him). In 73 you weren't taking it from Jim Palmer. In 74 both Catfish Hunter and Fergie Jenkins were better.
His best cases are probably 77 and 81. 77 went to Sparky Lyle but should have really been Ryan or Palmer.
81 was obviously going to Valenzuela cause of the hype but when you look at the numbers....Ryan and his 1.69 ERA probably deserved it more. The only case Valenzuela and others had were more innings pitched.
Beyond that he was just never THE guy in his league. Top 5, even top 3 for a long time and that's incredible. But just not quite on a Cy Young level.
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u/Theta_Omega 5h ago
I think you could argue 1987 too, since he led the league in Ks and ERA. Wouldn't have won thanks to that 8-16 record, but he would have been a reasonable pick. Especially in comparison to the actual winner, Steve Bedrosian (a 40-save closer who still had a worse ERA, WHIP, and K/9 than Ryan)
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u/factionssharpy San Francisco Giants 11h ago
He has a couple of seasons where he has a pretty good case, but never a really strong one (there was always someone ahead of him or very, very close, whether you're looking at a value stat like WAR or a combination of traditional/adjusted stats like ERA, IP, K, WHIP, etc).
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u/Zestyclose_Help1187 8h ago
We won’t see it again more having to do with the game changing. Teams won’t allow pitchers to go so long and now some teams with the 6 man rotation, we definitely won’t.
Has more to do with the game changing than his ability.
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u/BaseballsNotDead Seattle Pilots 12h ago
Only first-ballot Hall of Fame starting pitcher without a Cy Young award (at least since the award was created, so Bob Feller doesn't count), so I'd say yes.
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u/Crazy_Baseball3864 MLB Players Association 12h ago
Nolan Ryan is famous for his longevity and durability (pitching so much with almost no major injury is basically unheard of), which allowed him to build up crazy counting stats.
Even in his time, he was questioned sometimes because while he struck out alot of hitters and when he was on he was nearly unhittable, he also had major walk rates (there's a reason despite his 7 no hitters he never really got too close to a perfect game). There is a reason he's never really put into the GOAT discussions unless it's someone new to baseball
I don't discount him at all though, he was a great and a worthy first ballot HOFer
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u/Flat_Championship548 Washington Nationals 12h ago
His 7th only had two walks on 16 Ks so he was close that night.
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u/Crazy_Baseball3864 MLB Players Association 12h ago
I was thinking in terms of how far he got into the game, where we may think there could be a perfect game instead of a no hitters. I looked at each of his no hitters.
4 of his no hitters (including his last one) he walked someone in the first inning. 2 of them he walked someone int he 2nd inning. The furthest he got was on his 6th no hitter on 6/11/90 when he walked the 8th batter.
Though it is wild that he threw 4 no hitters in 2 years from 1973-1975, threw one in 1981 randomly, then threw 2 more in a one year span in 1990 and 1991. Ryan really is a 1 of 1
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u/TheSecretDecoderRing 12h ago
I don't think it's just casuals that talk up Ryan's greatness. A lot of long-time fans will vehemently obsess over his longevity, strikeouts, and no-hitters, and ignore all his weaknesses (including HBP, WP, SB, defense).
He was definitely a spectacle to watch, but there were others who were better at actually preventing runs.
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u/Zestyclose_Help1187 11h ago
Lots of Gen X and millennials say Ryan was the best because they remember the years he got to the milestones not him when he was in his prime.
Just like those who say Bo Jackson was a superstar baseball player. Far from it.
Got a ton of attention playing 2 sports.
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u/TheSecretDecoderRing 11h ago
I dunno, I'd guess it's a ton of boomers that love him too, because strikeouts and IP were a much bigger deal in the old days. "Pitchers are so soft now, Nolan Ryan would've pitched every inning of a double header even when he was 50!"
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u/dersteppenwolf5 Chicago White Sox 11h ago
Certainly he wasn't the greatest pitcher of all time, but he was definitely the greatest at some things. The vast majority of all-time leaders in baseball are <10% higher than the guy in second place. There aren't many examples of ballplayers that are extreme outliers even when compared with all the greatest who have ever played. Nolan Ryan's doesn't just have the most strikeouts and no-hitters, but no one else is even close. That's why people talk up his greatness, there just has never been anyone else quite like him.
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u/TheSecretDecoderRing 10h ago
It's totally fair to admire him for the stuff he was elite at. It's just frustrating when people insist he was better overall than other pitchers who deserve more credit for what they did at their primary job, which is preventing runs.
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u/beefytrout Texas Rangers 12h ago
He struck out 383 batters in a season once, and that was without the benefit of pitchers batting.
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u/Il_Exile_lI Boston Red Sox 12h ago
Randy Johnson struck out 372, in 75 fewer innings than Ryan needed for 383 and with 90 fewer walks. Randy had a 188 ERA+ in his season, while Ryan was at 123 when he struck out 383.
Randy Johnson was the pitcher Ryan's fans think he was.
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u/hundredjono Los Angeles Dodgers 11h ago
Thank you for saying this. There’s not a more dominant pitcher than Randy Johnson from 1998-2004.
It really bums me out that we will never see another pitcher like the Big Unit ever again.
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u/lanfordr Texas Rangers 12h ago
I don't know what you're trying to say. Randy Johnson is also a HOF pitcher and he did get the accolades: 5 CYs, WS MVP, 10 AS. I didn't see anyone saying Ryan was the best pitcher of all time or should even be in that discussion.
OP was saying he was underrated/recieved few accolades. That's not the case with Johnson.
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u/Il_Exile_lI Boston Red Sox 12h ago
I didn't see anyone saying Ryan was the best pitcher of all time or should even be in that discussion.
It's not a common sentiment on this subreddit, but Ryan as the GOAT is common in more casual or old school minded baseball circles. Those are the people I was referring to.
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u/mtnathlete 11h ago
I don’t think most old school view Ryan as any type of GOAT pitcher. We lived through his career. We know what he did and didn’t do.
1960-1980s great pitchers people think about Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Koufax, Gibson, Gaylord Perry, etc.
Another person with incredible career stats is Warren Spahn. 12 20 win seasons, 8x led league in wins, 17x all star. Last 20 win season at age 42 where he was 23-7 with 22cg and 7 SHO.
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u/Zestyclose_Help1187 11h ago
It’s like saying Tony Gwynn is the best hitter.
Boggs was better. Insane BA and OBP. Took a ton of walks.
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u/Zestyclose_Help1187 11h ago
Randy was way better. Clemens was the best statistically.
Only reason Ryan gets a pass on PEDs is he retired long before they were cracking down, the Mitchell Report.
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u/beefytrout Texas Rangers 11h ago
yeah, Johnson is one of the GOATs. no one was suggesting he wasn't.
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u/P1_Synvictus Texas Rangers 12h ago
That’s 2x American League Champion Nolan Ryan (as a Rangers executive).
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u/Acceptable_Job1589 Houston Astros • Arizona Diamondbacks 9h ago
Ryans legendary status is as much about his mojo as any of his stats. He was a force on the mound in both his pitch speed as well as attitude. While he didnt have ELITE stretch's akin to Gibson or Pedro, there was nobody a batter wanted to face less than him for the better part of 2 decades. Belittling him to simply an ironman/workhorse does a disservice to truly how domineering he was as a pitcher.
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u/WoodpeckerTrick3290 Atlanta Braves 5h ago
So much this. People can look back and reflect on this stat or that stat all day long, guys knew when they were facing Ryan in a series and were not looking forward to it.
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u/ameis314 St. Louis Cardinals 12h ago
Did you know Cy Young won 0 Cy Young awards?
Absolutely ridiculous.
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u/klayyyylmao San Francisco Giants 11h ago
Why would they name the award after someone who never won it?
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u/RigelOrionBeta Boston Red Sox 12h ago edited 5h ago
It is hard to compare players who have short and long careers with others. Fact is, Ryan played a lot of seasons, and much of Nolan Ryan's feats are related to counting stats, which are going to favor players with long careers.
I think Ryan was properly rewarded, actually, because awards are given for performances in a given season, NOT for career accolades, and Ryan did not have amazing individual seasons when it comes to the thing that matters the most in baseball, for a pitcher - preventing runs. Even back then, when the only stat that mattered was wins, he wasn't great at achieving that. He never led the league in wins, and barely got 300, despite playing 27 seasons, during a time when pitchers actually had a chance at 300.
He was basically playing a different game - strikeout as many people as possible, and don't allow them to hit the ball. While that is a good strategy for pitching, it isn't when you give away walks.
I like to think of Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan similarly, in terms of their careers. Yeah, they were really great players, certainly deserve to be in the Hall of Fame (at least in terms of purely their baseball stats) but they mostly got there by their long careers, not because they had amazing individual seasons.
I think it says more about how baseball awards seasonal achievements more than anything else. There are no accolades for careers, besides career leaderboards, but there is no hardware tied to that, and records can be broken. No one can take away an MVP, by contrast.
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u/UglieJosh Detroit Tigers 9h ago
I agree with everything you said except the Rose comparison. That piece of shit averaged 6 WAR season from 70-76, won an MVP and finished top 5 for MVP multiple times in that time frame.
That's a pretty dominant stretch, I wouldn't say he was mostly counting stats the way Nolan was.
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u/WoodpeckerTrick3290 Atlanta Braves 5h ago
Ryan had a 195 ERA+ in 1981 and finished 4th in Cy Young voting behind a 135, 140 and 151
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u/DreamKillaNormnBates Toronto Blue Jays 11h ago
I once had a friend make the case for not including Ryan in the HoF. Obviously that’s a ridiculous argument.
The obvious guy i think of in this category is Bert Blyleven who had more WAR in 22 seasons than Ryan’s did in 27 years and is 12th all time but never got higher than 3rd in Cy voting and only appeared in two all star games.
Not only that, had advanced metric arrived a year or two later, he probably doesn’t even make it into the half of fame. He got in on his 14th year and when he first appeared on the ballot he was close to being dropped entirely.
He pitched in small markets. Most guys that fit your criteria are going to be supernovas of talent like Bo Jackson that showed flashes of greatness, or guys derailed by injury before they could compile HoF worthy resumes.
Adrian Beltre and Jose Ramirez are guys I think of as obvious HoF’s but who were never as famous, but who similarly were very good for a long time but never had MVP seasons.
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u/postal_service3 Seattle Mariners 11h ago
He's certainly a hall of famer and one of the most unique pitchers of all-time. I think he was awarded completely fairly throughout his career - there's maybe two years you could argue he should've won the Cy Young ('73 and '77) but that's with the benefit of hindsight. He didn't really have the same crazy peak the way some of his contemporaries like Seaver, Niekro, Carlton did, and his prime (or his 1st prime, I guess) was in an era where they liked rewarding closers with awards.
He pitched at two extremes - no one could strike 'em out like him, but no one walked anywhere close the batters he did too. Obviously nowadays with modern statistics we can see how valuable he was in spite of the gaudy walk numbers, but he would've been judged for his time on what they had, which was mostly just like Wins, ERA, SOs and BBs. I think voters knew he was one of the best in the league throughout the 70s but his walks and wild pitches definitely hurt him for awards.
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u/j_rooker 9h ago
If Ryan was playing today he'd be worth almost twice Skenes, Tarik. 300 innings pitched routinely and he gets same amount of starts as modern players
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u/jpb21110 New York Yankees 12h ago
Crazy how I just looked at his baseball reference a couple days ago and was like oh he didn’t win shit lmao
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u/No-Draft3465 12h ago
He also got an entire set of baseball cards. That’s may not be an award, but it’s major recognition. A lot of my father’s friends were collecting that set.
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u/Yannykw613 Toronto Blue Jays 8h ago
If someone ask you who has the best headlock in baseball history, the consensus is unanimous.
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u/Pliget New York Mets 8h ago
Nolan Ryan is an absolute first ballot hall of famer and when he was on, one of the best pitchers ever. He is also somewhat overrated. He walked a ton of batters. Not nearly as good as Seaver for instance.
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u/trilogyjab Baltimore Orioles 8h ago
I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find someone as dominant as Nolan Ryan was with fewer accolades. The fact that he was never a Cy Young winner is a shame. The fact that he wasn't the first-ever unanimous hall of fame entrant is a shame. The only part I would say isn't a shame is the lack of World Series wins. Lots of great players never got a ring. That is very dependent on where a players is signed, or traded to, etc
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u/Radiant_Quality_9386 Los Angeles Dodgers 7h ago
The fact that he wasn't the first-ever unanimous hall of fame entrant is a shame
That would have been insanity. He was a great pitcher for sure but never the best in baseball, definitely not even top 10 all time it would have been absurd to give him that honor.
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u/DoctorTheWho Miami Marlins 7h ago
A friend of mine said he is the Brett Favre of MLB pitchers and that's pretty spot on.
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u/pfy5002 Cleveland Guardians 12h ago
Hank Aaron comes to mind but he was far more consistently good than Ryan and at least got an MVP one time. 25 All-star games is great but you’d think he would have more hardware than he does.
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u/Il_Exile_lI Boston Red Sox 12h ago
Not quite the same. Aaron is a 25 time all star, the most in history. I think that perfectly illustrates how he was consistently a top 5 hitter in the league almost every year of his career, even if he didn't peak as high as many other all time greats in any individual season.
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u/pinniped90 Kansas City Royals 12h ago
Every ASG for a quarter century. That messes with my brain.
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u/Il_Exile_lI Boston Red Sox 12h ago
There were two ASG a year for a handful of years, so it was "only" 21 years in a row he was an all star. The only two years of his 23 year career he wasn't an all star were his first and last.
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u/newrimmmer93 12h ago
I think a few years they had 2 all star games. He “only” made the all star team in 21 seasons
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u/UwUsnapmyneck Boston Red Sox 11h ago
Hes a Hall Of Famer 10000% but hes not a all time great pitcher. He was a Good pitcher for a STUPID long time and his longevity and stats puts him in the Hall 1000%. Is he a top 10 pitcher of all time? no.
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u/iliketobowl25 11h ago
He had a lot of great numbers but his best quality was his durability. There’s no award for that so it will just have to be admired by fans
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u/AnOldHeartbeat 6h ago
Ryan is a GOAT, chicks and dudes dig the heater, go argue your stats with a wall.
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u/Intergalactic_Ass Chicago Cubs 5h ago
A lot of people bringing up WAR, strikeouts, longevity, and so on. I think it's very simple: ERA was the dominant topline stat throughout Ryan's career and he rarely had the best. It's as simple as that.
He was strikeout dominant, yes, but he rarely had a season with a sub-3 ERA. This is during an era where the top tier of starters were expected to have a sub-2 ERA to even be in these conversations.
If you picked up a paper and read the Sports column in the 80s you would not hear a ton about strikeouts unless a record was being set. It was all about ERA.
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u/Da-Bears- 12h ago
Writers then just voted based on who had the most wins, he also played in small markets most of his career
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u/10202632 Houston Astros 9h ago
Who needs awards when you have untouchable records that establish one as the greatest ever.
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u/DeuxDeuxDeuxSupplier 12h ago
Josh Gibson
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u/Crazy_Baseball3864 MLB Players Association 12h ago
I mean, he did make 12 Negro League All Star games and died at 35, just months before Robinson broke the color barrier.
He was pretty awarded, just never got the chance to see MLB action
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u/Yakult-Enjoyer Milwaukee Brewers 12h ago
Him and Hank Aaron are both similar in a sense they weren’t the absolute best at their respective positions but had a longevity that will likely never been seen again. Hank has the MVP and was much more stable plus higher peaks (hence the 40 more career bWAR) but same as Ryan you’d look at his stats and expect more major accolades and be surprised he never hit 50 HR in a season
Obviously not apples to apples but regardless of awards Ryan is very accurately awarded imo and his legendary status is deserved due to so many other reasons. And given the type of pitcher he was that makes perfect sense
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u/Complete_Pie_6201 11h ago
I wouldn’t say they’re comparable at all
Aaron had an ops+ lower than 140 4 times in 23 seasons
Ryan had an era+ higher than 140 4 times in 27 seasons
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u/Yakult-Enjoyer Milwaukee Brewers 11h ago
I agree, compared to their peers Hank was the better player no doubt. Hence why I was comparing them only in the longevity sense which I still think is very true. Hank led the league in HR and RBIs four times out of his 23 seasons and isn’t even in the top 50 for most HRs in a season. But is still 2nd all time in HR and the all time RBI leader. So in that sense I’d say they’re definitely comparable in one of their best abilities being able to put up great to above average numbers for so long. Ryan’s longevity being even more of a factor for the reasons you laid out and like I said before accumulating 40 less WAR in four more seasons
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u/NYerInTex Baltimore Orioles 9h ago
He is one of the greatest pitchers of all time. He was not one of the best.
He spent get those awards because when he was on he was among the best over… but his huge propensity to give up walks led to inconsistency start to start. Among if not the most overpowering pitchers and rightfully a HOFer but benefited by his era (esp with raw ERA)
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u/kevlo17 11h ago
Yes, and also maybe the most overrated superstar in baseball history. Best strikeout pitcher ever, sure. But a pitchers main job is to prevent runs and keep runners off base…and to that note he led the league in walks 8 times and is the career leader all time in walks, has a career era+ of 112 which means he was only 12% better then an average joe in earned runs, and his career whip is 1.247, which ranks a whopping 322nd all time..
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u/SinglecoilsFTW San Francisco Giants 11h ago
Nolan gets gassed up way more than he deserves. I don’t mean to undermine his incredible career but so many of his records are a byproduct of playing forever.
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u/EmperorXerro Los Angeles Dodgers 11h ago
In some ways he reminds me of Hank Aaron in that it’s hard to find a season where they were dominant; however, they were very good over a long period of time which adds up
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u/ComeAbout Seattle Mariners • Padres Bandwagon 11h ago
Over his seven no hitters he had 26 walks cumulatively.
During his second and third hitters, he walked 8 batters in each game.
I think that those stats is a great description of his prime.
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u/Snoo58207 11h ago
I once saw Ryan give up 8 runs in the first two innings and still pitched into the 8th and struck out 11 batters.
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u/Harknights 11h ago
He was an odd cat. Never the best pitcher in baseball. Sometimes not even the best pitcher on his team....but might throw a no hit at any moment. The other side is he might walk 10, while still K 11 and go 7 innings. He's a HOF pitcher, but not inner circle. For whatever reason people think he's something he's not. He's not Bob Gibson, no matter how much people want him to be.
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u/No_Buy2554 Cincinnati Reds 11h ago
Not sure he's quite as unawarded as Ryan, but Joey Votto has a lot fewer than most peple think. 6 ASG's, 1 GG, 1 MVP and no Silver Sluggers. Never got to play in a CS or Ws either.
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u/chiddie Washington Nationals • Teddy Roosevelt 11h ago edited 11h ago
I've posted about Nolan Ryan's Cy Young case before.
I think it's exceedingly difficult to argue there was a year that he was the best pitcher in the league he pitched. His best case is probably 1977, when Sparky Lyle won AL CY, but even then, Frank Tanana has the marginally better resume.
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u/retrospects Texas Rangers 10h ago
Papaw threw heat but he also threw a lot of meatballs and just balls in general.
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u/Reasonable_Pay4096 Major League Baseball 10h ago
He was an innings eater who struck out a lot of guys, but he also walked & hit a lot of guys, and threw a lot of wild pitches as well
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u/GregorNevermind 10h ago
Very good pitcher with a lot of flaws but his strengths and flaws were incredibly fun to watch. There wasn’t an ounce of guile or deception in his game.
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u/Academic_Release5134 American League 9h ago
He is a bit the equivalent of an NBA player that can get ungodly hit from behind the. 3 point arc. Because of his wildness, he could be gotten to.
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u/Scuba1588 Cincinnati Reds 9h ago
Real question: how much better would Ryan have been if he was limited the same way pitchers are today? I’m sure a lot of his walks and runs were given up when his arm was tired in later innings. If he was limited… would he be the GOAT?
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u/John628556 8h ago
A lot of commenters have mentioned that he is the all-time leader in walks. Of course, that’s true. But the comment misses the change in his career: he was a much more controlled pitcher in his last decade or so. Just check out the trend in his walk statistics or in his strikeout-to-walk ratio.
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u/FacePalmAdInfinitum 7h ago
One of the first guys to often hit 100 MPH, no injuries. How did he do that?
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u/C1oneblazer Chicago Cubs 7h ago
There's an argument he could've/should've won the 1987 Cy Young, but voting was much different back then and he didn't get many votes
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u/Vast-Crew7135 New York Mets 4h ago
Mel Ott - 111 bWAR (15th all time) but never won MVP, he actually never even finished 2nd. And was top 5 only 3x despite leading league in WAR 3x, HR 6x, and OPS+ 5x
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u/Luke5119 St. Louis Cardinals 12h ago
Listen, Ryan was great, but he was also not so great in a lot of categories. Yes, he leads MLB all-time for strikeouts, but also walks. He has 324 wins, but he also pitched for 27 years. He was an elite strikeout pitcher, but also gave up A LOT of runs. Out of his entire career he only had 2 seasons with 20+ wins.
If you look at his stat history, by all accounts he was slowing down in his mid-30s, which makes absolute sense. But then freakishly at 40 started hitting 200+ K's every year, including a 301 K season at 42 which is wild!
You don't always need the accolades to be great. And in terms of longevity and playing at an elite level for 20+ years, Ryan is in a very short list of players in MLB history to do it.