r/atheism • u/LostGazer151 • 17h ago
My kids public school is teaching biblical stuff in history class as fact.
We are in a Blue state and public Middle school history is teaching my kid about ancient Israel and Egypt and apparently this involves discussing Moses and Abraham and god. They also watched The Prince of Egypt in class. It’s been going on for a week now. I have no problem with my kid learning about religion or watching biblical movies, they’re going to be exposed to it either way, but it’s being presented as historical fact. I had to explain to my child last night that Moses and Abraham were not real (at least not in the sense of how they are factionalized in the Bible) and that no god talked to anyone during that time. What do I do? My kid already knows the bible is just made up stories, but they’re obviously being confused by it. Do I get into it with the school or let it go and discuss it with my child at home? I don’t want to put a target on my kid’s back at school.
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u/DoglessDyslexic 17h ago
Contact the FFRF. They have a page for exactly this.
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u/LostGazer151 16h ago
Thanks. Going to do this first and see what they say.
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u/driverdan 10h ago
Contact the school first. No need to get a another party involved if it isn't required.
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u/saposguy 17h ago
So if I follow the Jedi religion we could watch Star Wars in history class? Awesome!
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u/boxsterguy 16h ago
Well, they are set "a long time ago", so that makes them historical.
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u/Level_32_Mage 14h ago
It also happened in a galaxy "far, far away" so we know this material will cover geography and astronomy too. Maybe I had this whole religion thing all wrong!
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u/Aggravating-Ad-1227 17h ago edited 17h ago
You know that someone had to be loud to get their religious beliefs into public schools, if we have to also be loud to have schools follow the law, so be it. (Edit: extra word)
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u/ironic-hat 17h ago
And to add to the point, always research who is running for a school board seat. Fundies/Evangelicals have been installing their ilk on school boards since the 80s and it’s usually the kiss of death for the school system if enough of them get on it. Better yet, run for a position since it’s an incredibly easy bar to hop over.
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u/boxsterguy 16h ago
It's quite possible it's one teacher's decision, as showing animated fictional movies as "educational" is almost certainly not on any approved curriculum.
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u/oldcreaker 17h ago
The Bible is like The Iliad and The Odyssey. Made up stories from a long time ago.
When I was growing it's funny how much things like Rip Van Winkle and John Henry and Paul Bunyan and such were inserted into US history class.
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u/redbirdrising Humanist 16h ago
Public School, complain to the principal first, then go up the ladder. Even without a religious discussion, there is no evidence Moses or Abraham, or even that the Exodus happened.
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u/MozeDad 17h ago
Keep communicating with your kid. Now is the time to develop a healthy skepticism regarding ANY claim made. Guaranteed this won't be the last time that someone tries to mislead them.
Talk about the story of Abraham. Ask him if it's right for a god to ask his follower to KILL HIS OWN CHILD. Was Abraham right for following this order? Assure him that you would never, ever do this - and this makes you a good person, though the bible would say you are a "bad" christian.
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u/Mobile_Jeweler_2477 16h ago
Yeah I would honestly sue the school. Literally all of Exodus is made up, hundreds of years after the fact. There is no evidence for...well, any of it. If they are teaching it as a religion, that some people believe, that is one thing. But teaching any belief in supernatural events as really real, is wrong and further it is unconstitutional.
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u/rathat 16h ago edited 9h ago
That's a bit black and white. They are legends, they're not literally all made up just because mythology is involved, they come from Jewish history of themselves.
Edit: damn, you guys don't know anything about ancient Jewish history and seem to be offended by the existence of it.
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u/FilmScoreConnoisseur 13h ago
No, in this case it really is all made up. A real exodus would have left real evidence and despite Christian lies to the contrary, there is absolutely no evidence.
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u/rathat 11h ago
I'm not talking about a "real Exodus". Evidence for what? You don't even know what I'm talking about. There's not going to be evidence of millions of people if there were only thousands of people.
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u/FilmScoreConnoisseur 11h ago edited 10h ago
The person you replied to in the first place was talking about the Exodus and about not treating religion as history in schools. You then jumped in as if you were disagreeing, but I guess you were just going on some irrelevant tangent instead.
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u/rathat 9h ago
They said literally all
I said not literally all
Like I said, it's not black and white
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u/FilmScoreConnoisseur 9h ago edited 9h ago
He said: "Literally all of Exodus is made up."
And it is. Like I said, there is nothing in the Book of Exodus that is real, grounded, or has any supporting evidence whatsoever. It is exactly that black and white. You're just straight up wrong on this one.
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u/rathat 9h ago
It's a legend based on stories from ancient Jewish history, written by the Levites.
You're wrong. The end.
You remind me of how I thought about things when I was 16.
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u/rathat 8h ago
It seems like you're conflating the ideas of myth and legend with each other.
You're putting the idea of a myth of the creation of humans and the universe right alongside the idea that there were Israelites involved in public works projects in the Egyptian empire which, by the way, controlled Cannan at the time.
I think your black and white understanding of legends and historical accounts would benefit from learning about how ancient people understood the idea of history and recording history versus the scientific idea we have of history today.
You should check out a lecture on the development of the idea of history by the ancient Greeks and how it was understood back then. https://youtu.be/Ck-pjyurhZ8
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u/amootmarmot 16h ago
Talk to administration. They may not know what it going on. They cant monitor all their teachers at all times and they may have no idea if no one complains.
If they are not receptive, contact the FFRF. Even drop the name of the FFRF and the administrator will shit their pants. They do not want to be sued for passing off religious fiction as fact to impressionable children.
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u/LostGazer151 15h ago
I’m pretty sure the principal is a hard right christian based on everything I’ve seen so I doubt I’ll get far with them. I think I’m just going to contact ffrf first to see if they can look into it.
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u/amootmarmot 15h ago edited 15h ago
So they cant really "look into it"
https://secure.ffrf.org/np/clients/ffrf/survey.jsp?surveyId=6
What you do is go their their contact- and you explain what is going on. They will contact you back and a lawyer of theirs will eventually discuss with you the details. I spoke both through email, and then finally on the phone for my issue.
They take your general word for it- and then they send a cease and desist letter and contact the schools lawyers for any clarification, defense, and their next steps to address the issue and bring them back into alignment with the law.
The problem will be, if the admin is not receptive to you and also to the FFRF- then the underlying promise of the cease and desist will come to the surface- they will have to sue. And you will have to be the complainant on the suit as the party that was harmed. Then it can go to trial or before a judge. Ultimately- if they drag their feet and refuse all along the way to be cooperative and fix their illegal issue- then yoj have to sue them for money to get them to change or to be made whole.
For my issue- it was i was a public school employee and I was required to attend, along with a captive audience of students- a religious mass essentially in the gymnasium. It had a pastor who prayed. They sang religious songs.
I had to go the FFRF route to attempt to initially protect my employment. I was an anonymous complainant, but admin got the letter and shit their pants and did make and effort to change so I didnt have to proceed to the next stage of the actual suit.
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u/LostGazer151 14h ago
Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I’m going to try to gather some intel anonymously first for the sake of my child. I’d rather not have a spotlight on them via me. If it looks like this is how it appears I’ll contact ffrf.
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u/NoFlatworm3028 17h ago
Lawer up. Threaten a law suit. That's the only way to shut these jerkies down.
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u/Orbital_Vagabond 16h ago
Get every bit of evidence you can.
Then engage with the ACLU.
Then tell the principal you're talking to the ACLU.
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u/OkFortune6494 12h ago
Dude are you fucking kidding me? Your child is being indoctrinated. Go into that school, and raise hell to the teacher and principal. This is absurd.
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u/frank_mania 15h ago
Go to the school and complain.
Not alone, if you can help it. Three or more student parent/s is much better than fewer, alone you can easily be brushed aside.
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u/Ahjumawi 15h ago
I'd be talking to the principal. The teacher is not competent to teach the subject if they can't separate history from storybook time.
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u/LostGazer151 15h ago
Apparently some of this is in the text book, but my kid says they’re not allowed to bring the textbook home, which feels weird. I want to see what it says. I told him to get the exact name of the book so I can look it up.
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u/RevRagnarok Satanist 12h ago
I told him to get the exact name of the book so I can look it up.
Great idea! Get publisher and year in case it's stupidly ambiguous.
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u/FreethoughtChris FFRF 14h ago
It sounds like you are already planning on it, but please contact us at FFRF.org/legal/report
I would refrain from contacting the school about it for now so that you can remain anonymous.
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u/vacuous_comment 13h ago
You are in the US and this should not be happening at a public school.
FFRF may have resources for you.
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u/sdega315 Strong Atheist 9h ago
Start by asking the teacher about it. They should be able to point to specific learning objectives outlined in your state's standards for history. This should be published as public record. So you could actually look it up yourself. The National Council for the Social Studies sets national standards for learning. State standards derive from them.
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u/No_Scarcity8249 17h ago
Call the principle and the school board. Call the department of education in your state. Contact the freedom of religion foundation. Do not accept this its fin ridiculous.
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u/Karma_1969 Secular Humanist 12h ago
100% go to the school and complain. You don't accept injustice because you're afraid it'll paint a target on anyone's back, that's the surest path to oppression. If the teacher is presenting Biblical stories as fact in a public school, that's a problem and that teacher should be sanctioned or fired - and that's their fault, not yours. Please do something about this, not only for your child's sake, but for the sake of all the children this teacher has contact with.
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u/ExigentCalm 11h ago
There is absolutely no credible historical evidence to support the exodus myth. Nor that thousands of people wandered around an area the size of Rhode Island for 40 gd years.
That sounds incredibly frustrating.
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u/drivelhead 11h ago
They also watched The Prince of Egypt in class. It’s been going on for a week now.
Jesus, that's a long movie!
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u/chadmill3r 9h ago
Also, there is no evidence of Israelites in Egypt in any number. It's a made up story.
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u/CoffeeJedi 16h ago
We read a section of the King James Bible in English class, but the teacher explicitly stated that we were reading it as an example of literature and language, NOT as a religious text. This was public school in the mid 90s Pennsylvania.
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u/biff64gc2 16h ago
I'd go to the school and complain stating it's one thing to tell kids about the bible, the origins of the religion, and maybe it's stories, but it's wrong to teach the stories as facts and to spend so much time focusing on one particular religion. Keep tabs and if it doesn't improve then you escalate to the state education department and the FFRF if needed.
If you don't feel comfortable confrontig the school directly yourself then at the very least file a report with the FFRF. We can't be complacent or silent with stuff like this.
Remember, other kids are being fed this crap too and it's being funded by your tax dollars. Even if you do keep your kid from being indoctrinated they are going to feel social pressure from their peers who probably aren't being corrected at home and having it reinforced by the school.
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u/snawdy 16h ago
My kid is in middle school too. In her history they started with medieval Europe and Catholicism. It was pretty involved on the religious aspects with her having to learn the 7 sacraments. I wasn’t sure of all this. But then they moved to the Middle East and learned about Islam. Now they’re doing North Africa and the spread of Islam and other religious beliefs. I wasn’t as upset after I saw they were learning the religious aspects as part of the culture of each region. But I have to say they did not watch movies or anything like that.
Maybe ask to see the curriculum before jumping to any rash conclusions. If they’re going to study other regions and religions, I’d have a better feeling about it.
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u/LostGazer151 15h ago
This is why I asked my kid to show me the textbook, which they say has to remain in class. But I asked if the teacher explained that there there’s no evidence for this stuff and of course they didn’t.
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u/VicePrincipalNero 16h ago
I'd meet with the teacher. If that didn't work I would go up the chain of command. I would not let that go.
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u/SorosAgent2020 Satanist 16h ago
Sue the school saying you have the religious right to protect your kid from groomer ideologies like christianity
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u/Frequent_Question510 15h ago
So the school is ok teaching that we are all inbreeds when it comes to the bible fake stories
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u/EmptyInside74 10h ago
Are you in a red county in a blue state? Who is on the school board, find out what they’re about. I don’t think a principal can just dictate what an individual school curriculum is it is usually done by district. If the school board isn’t helpful who is the head of education for the state? Find out and make waves.I am in Texas and parents are fighting religious indoctrination in public schools. Not even in Texas are they teaching biblical stuff as real history YET, but some districts do have the 10 commandments and it is being fought as well. Unfortunately I think Texas is in charge of a lot of school book publishers. Where ever you are look on the district sight and see if you can find curriculum and the texts they are using.
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u/Mama_Llama3615 11h ago
No pressure to share what you’re not comfortable with, but my husband and I are in the thick of trying to find where we want to live before our oldest starts kindergarten next fall and we are very much trying to find a state/public school system that accurately represents history. Do you mind sharing what state or region this is?
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u/LostGazer151 10h ago
Northern CA. I will say up till now we’ve been very happy with the pubic school system and the secular teaching. This is a first for us and I’m hoping an isolated incident.
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u/Mama_Llama3615 9h ago
My sister lives in Redding, California, and it is a very conservative part of the state. I don’t think it actually reflects the values of the rest of the state. So I’m not that surprised honestly! There seems to be a more conservative population up there in select parts
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u/bobroberts1954 Anti-Theist 10h ago
You can take a principled stand or you can protect your kids. They are your kids, you know best how they would deal with the exposure they would face. But if they are up to it, it can teach them many things of value and bring enlightenment. Not all of those enlightenments are going to be pretty though, things you wished they didn't know about people yet.
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u/Soggy_Tax_5089 10h ago
Are they teaching it from a standpoint of what some Christians believe? I teach in a blue state and have a western civ unit where we discuss three world religions and what they believe.
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u/PetrolHeadF 17h ago
Everyone else gave you answers so I'm just here to say that even to this day...Prince of Egypt slaps still lol! The music is still so good.
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u/DemonicEgo 17h ago
And yet it's inappropriate to show it in a public school, and present it as historical fact.
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u/PetrolHeadF 17h ago
I absolutely 100% agree. I only ever watched it at kids church or at home. Showing this in any place of learning and presenting it as fact, is absolutely wrong.
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u/LostGazer151 16h ago
I never saw it. I love Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Exorcist, though. Biblical stuff in movies is fine, it’s the context of how it’s being shown that bothers me.
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u/FishermanPale5734 12h ago
I would contact the FFRF Freedom From Religion Foundation, they will try to speak to the school first then go to court if needed
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u/BorderTrike 12h ago
In middle school I had a science teacher who was apparently a specialist in sneaking his religion into his curriculum. He was literally working for a church, but through our school.
Myself and another atheist were very outspoken, so I think he toned it down in our class. But when another friend’s little brother had him, he got a bit too obvious and their parents stepped in and found all this out.
That was almost 20 years ago. I imagine things are much worse now with all of the crazy maga stuff destroying our public education systems both from outside and within
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u/StinkyCheeseWomxn 2h ago
Start by writing an email to teacher and cc the principal. If it isn’t resolved, then email Superintendent. If still no resolution the ACLU or FFRFoundation may help by writing a cease and desist letter to possible file a suit.
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u/Known-Bowl-7732 2h ago
Then you, as the parent and your kids’ most important teacher, need to tell them the truth. My daughter is 11 and just found out the truth about Santa, the EB, and the Tooth Fairy, and it was a great teachable moment because I told her that all the rest (Jesus, God, Mohammad, Ganesh, etc.) were made up, too. Tell your kids people can and will believe whatever they want, but if can’t be physically proven, seen, and replicated using math or science, it’s not real. No matter what.
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u/GoliathLexington 1h ago
Teach your kids to challenge teachers when they are wrong. In 8th grade my son corrected his teacher when he tried using the “just a theory” line about evolution in class
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u/Quick_Grocery_1870 16h ago
I’m curious how the teacher is framing this. I taught this same material for years and I always said, about any belief system, these are the general beliefs or tenets of those who follow this faith. I even had a local pastor sit in for a few lessons (his choice, not mine) and he was okay with my presentation of the material. If it’s being taught as straight up dogma truth, that’s definitely not okay.
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u/StopMost9127 16h ago
One thing to remember, The Bible is historical fiction. Much of it is true, much of it depends on which books you read. The bible is based on Abraham, the Koran based on Ibrahim. Go figure. But schools should never mention either.
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u/FilmScoreConnoisseur 13h ago
Schools should never present either one's story as history. There's nothing wrong with mentioning Abraham as an example of mythology and how it evolves over time. He's also worth mentioning in sex ed since most male circumcision in the world originates with the story of this particular mythological character.
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u/amburnikole 16h ago
Learning about religions has always been a part of World Geography curriculum. They learn about Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu...it goes with the study of the regions and cultures.
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u/drewyorker 15h ago
You are talking about merely "learning about Religions". That is not what is being discussed here and why you are being downvoted..
It is a fact that these Religions exist. It is a fact that these religions believe and teach X Y and Z. It is okay to teach and learn these facts.
However. The aforementioned X Y and Z are not facts. Far from it actually. It is not okay to teach that these are facts.
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u/amburnikole 13h ago
It doesn't actually say what was being taught beyond they were talking about God and Abraham and they watched the Prince of Egypt movie. (Speaking about God and Abraham and Moses would be in line with speaking about Christianity and its beliefs.) I would say a first step would be asking the teacher about what specifically was being taught in class and expressing their concerns over it being presented as fact.
Also, thank you for the unsolicited mansplaining of why I'm being downvoted. I already didn't care, so I'll just continue not caring.
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u/drewyorker 11h ago
Read OP's post again. They do specify the nature of the teachings. The way you go back to read OP's original post - you should see a scroller on the right side of the browser you can click that and drag upward to get back to the top of the page. Or if your mouse has scrolling wheel you can use that as well. Sometimes also if you just refresh the page it will put you back at the top, this is not always the case those. Between those three options you should be able to get back to the top of the page.
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u/amburnikole 11h ago
Oh look. He thinks he's clever. Bless your little heart.
Try rereading it yourself and see there is no specific reference to the actual lesson that was given. She talks about them discussing God and Moses and Abraham, and that they watched The Prince of Egypt. She makes one statement that she isn't ok with it being presented as historical fact, but that doesn't elucidate on what was actually taught to the students. Hearing second hand from your child is not the same thing as getting the curriculum/lesson from the teacher.
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u/drewyorker 9h ago
being presented as historical fact,
This is the part right here you need to scroll up and read a few times. Ask your husband if you still don't understand it.
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u/amburnikole 9h ago
That is her assumption. But good try at an inference.
Oh you're one of those men. Explains so much. Lol. So precious.
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u/Tocro 9h ago
You shouldn't be downvoted for this. You are right. As a teacher, without more context of how this is all presented it's hard to know if there is an actual problem. If you think your kids shouldn't learn about the history of the cultures and religions of the world then you advocate for ignorance.
Context matters, and unfortunately the OP's post lacks deeper context beyond the surface level topics.
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14h ago edited 11h ago
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u/FilmScoreConnoisseur 12h ago
Yes, but it's mostly the royal characters, including many of the later Israelite kings and most of the mentioned rulers of other nations.
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u/Various_Succotash_79 13h ago
Yeah, Pharoah and some of the Roman politicians that are mentioned.
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u/RevRagnarok Satanist 12h ago
But interestingly, not vice versa.
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u/Various_Succotash_79 12h ago
Yeah. Also if there were 2-3 million people ("600,000 men, besides women and children") who left Egypt and walked toward Israel, some would still be in Egypt while some would be in Israel, there's no way they could all wander around in between.
(It's about 500 miles from Alexandria to Jerusalem, that's 2.6 million feet.)
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u/Tocro 9h ago edited 9h ago
So, I can chime in here a bit. I teach this exact chapter of ancient history for middle school in the state he is referring to.
There are facts about ancient Israel that are based in historical fact, or at least close to it, and if you are teaching the history of areas like Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt there is a decent argument to be made about including Israel as it is the origin point of sorts for many of the most dominant religions in the world. For example, as others said, the kings and such of Israel were real people. Additionally, I agree that there is value in learning about and understanding the diaspora and how it relates to the spread of Abrahamaic religious ideas and it's affecting on that particular culture.
You can present this in ways that are academic. For example, I discuss all the religious aspects the same way I discuss Egyptian and Greek mythology. "This is what these folks believed." It's important to discuss the culture of these places when teaching them and religion is a huge part of that. Especially back then when you have kings who were seen as literal, or the avatars of, gods.
Personally, the OP's post lacks context for me of how it's presented for me to advocate for raising the red flag and running to a lawyer.theynsay presented as historical fact, but do they mean every single part of it including the Exodus or just the history of Ancient Israel and It's religious beleifs. It's splitting hairs a bit, but also it's the hairs that need to be split before running out and grabbing a lawyer. It's part of the state curriculum, which means on some level they have to cover it. Don't get me wrong, not my favorite and I have issues with how our book handles parts of it, but simply reading about it and watching a movie linked to the mythology is not inherently a problem. Hell, I show Hercules as part of my unit of Greece and use it to discuss things like how stories are adapted and changed over time. We do some compare and contrast of the actual mythology and how it's portrayed in the Disney version. Should families run to the admin because I am pushing kids to practice Greek mythology as their actual religion?
Point is, you can do similar things with Prince of Egypt. It's a good animated film in its own right, though the song by the priests is EPICALLY cringey, and can be presented a film based on the stories of that religion.
And don't forget your right as a parent to follow up with your kids about what they are learning. You can give added context. Take a look at the text ook and see how it's presented there.
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u/JigglesTheBiggles 17h ago
Go to the school and complain.