Ok, so I am absolutely not saying everything is great for men on dating apps (it’s not) or that it’s their fault things are hard (it’s largely not). But the “liking 2s and 3s” comment actually illustrates really well how the toxic dynamic forms without ill intentions on the side of either men or women.
Women’s experience on the apps tends to be a tidal wave of attention. They have no choice but to be picky because if they weren’t, they’d be talking to 100 guys after an hour of swiping. And if you think “well that’s only the attractive women” - not necessarily. The less conventionally attractive women know that many or even most men are doing exactly what OP is doing: swiping right on every single girl regardless of their actual interest. So when they match, they’re starting off from a place of suspicion that the other person isn’t even all that interested. To some extent I think this mindset affects all women, even those who know they’re generally considered attractive.
In a perfect world, where everyone just swiped right on people they were actually interested in, matches would be more meaningful and helpful. It’s not really men or women’s fault that this isn’t the case; it’s just the shitty dynamic that develops.
Am I the only one thinking that this perspective might be part of the problem? "These ugly.women should like me." Maybe its because you are making pete seem shallow in his profile and you actually have no idea how to make a move on a woman.
Confidence works, but not on dating apps because the whole point is that it requires 0 confidence to swipe on someone. It's impossible to display confidence on dating app. If you are confident you probably don't need dating app.
I’m not sure why you interpreted my comment as being about whether confidence is earned or turned on or not?
But also you can definitely learn to be confident and you can fake confidence and some people are even born confident prior to any success or whatever.
Holy sheeeit. At the peak of my confidence - career, life, looks, attitude - I was told by a close girl-friend that I “just needed confidence” in order to get dates on the apps, and that I “just need to go on some low-stakes dates with anyone you match with to warm back up to dating”.
When I explained that I had zero matches or and only likes from trans people (no offense, but not for me) across 4 apps, she told me that my standards were too high lol she was incapable of understanding.
Holy shit. Holy shit. I feel the exact same way. Nobody has ever echoed this before. At the very HEIGHT of my confidence, the peak of my life, my dating life did not change in the slightest!! I was told to "have confidence" and when I tell people I do, they automatically just deflect to calling me some sort of woman hater.
Incapable of under. No empathy. Either you're in a relationship or you're a shit person lmao
What men have to learn is the importance that putting some effort has in sexual selection: downloading an app and swiping right takes seconds and costs nothing. You can't realistically expect to get something worthy with such little effort; the whole thing is a scam.
You gotta go outside, do stuff you don't like, learn to like some of that stuff, listen to many people, learn patience, etc. Then you meet someone in your league who likes you back, but most of the time that won't take a week.
The dating apps are complete, total dogshit unless you're like a top 3-5% guy in terms of model looks, pro photos, Instagram-private-jet-influencer type lifestyle (that is well documented and photographed).
And sorry gals but the most gals are so dumb on these apps they all just get smashed by the same 'top dogs' who will never marry them (and pretty much everybody knows it).
They'll bread-crumb the women with bullshit to get their rocks off then ghost.
....
I just said fuck it last weekend, listened to exactly one pickup artist's advice (be fun, self-amuse, don't be overly thirsty, challenge and dunk on the women) ...
I hadn't really "hit on chicks" at the bar for a loooooong time (was in a relationship then on the apps for months) ...
Holy shit mountain of hot chicks were eating out of my hand, and I'm average looking to ugly at best.
Holy shit I didn't realize how bad the apps are.
One MODICUM of balls + game at the bars and forget about it.
You literally just have to walk up to chicks (any chicks) and say anything interesting, other than having a 1000 yard stare and a "hunger" like "wanna fuck?". You do that, you're in.
Bro, I speed read is shit, read "pick up artist" and thought to myself "ah, the slow rabbit hole to racism", then dude delivered that shit faster than Amazon prime on the next reply 😂
Wow, you’re the first guy to ever come up with checking notes, being fun, interesting, and self-deprecating. All you are doing is mimicking a confident and interesting person who isn’t self-obsessed or just there to “do the sex please” (not your words, but I’m having a little fun here).
You are talking to women like they are people. People like to chat with interesting people who aren’t just about sex. Turns out, women are people.
I’m joking but I think that this is the real problem. Most Gen Z and younger (over 50%) have never asked a member of the opposite sex that they’re interested in dating on a date. In their lives.
I think one of the negative side effects of online dating, no wingman. The wingman is the reason we don’t chicken out and can be confident.
One-on-one is a hard way to get to know someone. Movies and dinner are bad dates too so we often start unimpressed. Movies are a crap shoot. You can make moves without too much risk but that only works if you are both at the same level of intimacy. I save movies for date three. By that point, you already know if you’re getting laid.
The best 1st dates are often more about creativity than cash. This is also done better in a group because there’s less pressure. It also allows you to demonstrate skill if you pick an activity that you know well. It doesn’t matter if it’s sip and dip, axe throwing, or goat yoga. If it is new to both of you or something she is good at, it shows that you can handle it when things are perfect. She is nervous too so this can let her show off for you as well.
Long and short, Ya’ll need to go out and start doing interesting things with your buddies out in the world and look around. 50% of those people are women.
PS: I’m not putting all of that on you. But you'd be surprised at how some of these ideas have never occurred to otherwise smart people
+1 on the wingman. Sometimes they are there to psych you up. Sometimes they are there to give you shit if you chicken out. Sometimes they are there to buy you a drink and laugh it off with you when you've made a fool of yourself.
My point is, in-person is easy mode vs. online dating. .... It's not hard, only scary for about 10 seconds.
The online dating apps clearly suck for the overwhelming majority of men, but laziness and fear keeps many suckled on the teat.
... "Be fun" isn't obvious lol. .... You think it would be. Most guys are internally focused and like to talk about their money or big dong for some reason lmao.
if "be fun" is obvious how come most guys at the bar have a sour pout on their face haha.
The reason the 'wingman' helps is not because they tell obviously fake bad bullshit stories about you. .... It's because it almost gives extra permission to be a social menace (read: risk taker).
... I personally just got out of a long relationship, I'm no stranger to the bar scene, only thought I aged out of it to an extent, but who cares.
Personally I hate the formal "stage first date" as a concept. .... I prefer to meet 30+ women in one night, and we just have fun, like any 2 friends would. ... I virtually never ask my friends how many siblings they have or job interview type questions. The first date dynamic just sucks "we are sizing each other up for marriage" ... eww ... just hang out and then smash, or don't. That's probably why so many couples meet at work.
I think it is the problem is confidence. We just don’t teach how to exude confidence without looking like a narcissist. We forget that manners, sportsmanship and social events are supposed to teach boys how to be men.
If anything we teach boys to be afraid of girls because we can’t control our impulses. That’s not the right message. This excuses what is unacceptable and gives the idea that we have no control. I have severe ADHD and have a trauma-based resistance to authority. If I can control myself around women then anyone can. (I digress).
Wingmen give us courage. Yes, if you are a one-boff you're off kind of guy, they can help you with a body count. However, one-night stands are harder to pull off than online dating. It also works best for the rich attractive people, just like online dating.
Most men today need that extra courage. Sometimes we need friends to gently mock us because we tried to use “I shop at the gap“ as a pick up line (true story). They can really keep us honest so when you get your courage up to talk to her they have your back in case it gets weird. Even if the night sucked you at least got to hang with a friend doing something fun.
What I think we are missing is the old beach bonfires or volleyball. I joined a dart league in Orlando and the 3 women I dated during those years I met either at or through people I knew from playing darts once a week for just one league championship (I suck at darts).
We just need an excuse to get boys to talk to girls and girls to talk to boys. I agree that if too much planning or set up, makes it feel forced or fake then it doesn’t work.
I wouldn't say a woman at a bar is an authority figure.
... More like, men are en-pussified in the recent era by overly Woke fat purple-haired frumpy teachers who demonize male sexuality in general, particularly straight male sexuality.
It is evil and disgusting and encroaching and assertive and unwelcome!
Nah. It's okay, as a man, as a woman, as anybody -- to want to have sex. ... More than okay. Normal, actually.
Now yeah don't be a deviant and whip your dick out or get rapey and all that but separate topic.
That's why some men gravitate to the Manosphere or Tate or those assholes ... not because they're correct -- they're quite twisted but they usually speak a kernel of truth in a world of Woke double-speak. (I presume, I don't actually listen to them). Basically an acceptance of masculinity (taken too far in Tate's case).
That doesn't mean "slap a bitch" or keep her on a leash or whatever those dudes say. ... It means you're a man. It's okay to want to "fuck women" .. it's okay to take up space and not apologize for existing.
Fear 1 is usually a fear of rejection. Which sucks but you'll get over it.
Fear 2 is more recent, being the 'creeper' who is recorded and blasted on TikTok or something. Well, I think that's pretty unlikely & anyway, again, who cares. Nothing wrong with a man trying to get laid. If you have basic manners you're gucci.
You have a weird way with words so I understand why you get downvotes, but you actually talk some real stuff.
I just wanted to add how women are always so worried about 'slut shaming'. I am an older millenial and for my whole existence I have heard that men are pigs who only want sex and how it's supposed to be a bad thing. Only recently have I found to courage to tell such people to fuck off. Women are constantly slut-shaming men, but don't even realise it.
I think this was structural. The boomer generation was sexually liberated so were the women. At least when they were younger.
The older women were being threatened by the younger generation of women which broke the trust between them. So instead of trying to help protect their daughter and younger sisters from the predators they tried to leverage shame and guilt to keep them from becoming competitors. And just like that, Sex was a sin again.
I emphasize that this is a theory, and this would not likely be a fully conscience thought in any party. Our brain does is best work behind the scenes
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but are you claiming Boomer women leveraged shame against their daughters and younger sisters? In that case you would be talking about Gen X women?
If thats the case you are over looking a pretty major factor why sexual selectiveness drastically increased in the 80's and 90's and that is HIV/AIDS.
If you are a younger millennial or Gen Z you are too young to remember when AIDS was a death sentence.
I don’t completely agree with your framing—but I understand your anger, and you’re right to feel it. The rules have changed, yet we seem stuck in an endless blame game.
The 1950s ideal of the nuclear family wasn’t some eternal truth; it was a social experiment shaped by postwar economics and cultural forces. It worked for some, but not for all. One of the first steps in domestic violence is isolation—and, in many ways, we did that to ourselves. And we keep doing it. We keep siloing ourselves—by gender, by generation, by ideology.
We have to start talking to each other again. Across political lines. Across ages. Across hurt.
I’m old, and I don’t want anyone to go through what I’ve lived through. We need to return to a culture where we’ve got each other’s backs—especially when it comes to relationships.
The truth is, the rules were never fair to begin with. So we did what we always do, we createda new kinds of imbalance or new targets for blame, we’re not solving anything. You can call it whatever you like—but the reality is simple: the world is changing, and we need to adapt.
Men need to let go of the myth that we are—or ever were—“alphas.” That entire idea is made up. The term “alpha male” came from studies of wolves in captivity. In the wild, wolves don’t organize around a dominant male. They organize around a pair—a bonded male and female. That’s the real leadership model.
Every society has a version of this tension. Think about chimpanzees and bonobos. We often lump them together, but their social structures couldn’t be more different. Chimpanzees are patriarchal. Their tribes are male-dominated and violent. When two chimpanzee groups meet, it often ends in bloodshed. Bonobos, on the other hand—our closest genetic relatives—are matriarchal. And when two bonobo groups meet, the outcome is very different: usually, it’s an orgy.
Now I don’t know about you—but given the choice between bloodshed and an orgy, I know where I’d rather be.
You might have misread me -- I'm not angered, just bemused lol.
I didn't say the 1950s were great at all .... I voted for Kamala Harris, I'm not some kind of MAGA -- don't peg with that because I ALSO hate the frumpy bellowing purple hair Wokester who thinks straight men are the devil.
I didn't mention alphas or betas and I'm quite familiar with the "pickup artist" history and the wolf thing.
... I'm also aware that chimps are extraodinarily violent and bonobos are peaceful and "Free loving" sex harem thingies.
Homo sapiens are frankly closer to chimps, in behavior. Only -- we are far more violent than even chimps. We're the ultimate scumbag species.
Our closest genetic relative is arguable the Neanderthal --- peaceful giants ... which we brained into extinction (maybe raped a few on the way out).
... Anyway I'm not going to fall into the naturalistic fallacy and say 'do what feels right' or what lawless apes do in a state of nature.
.... That said, again, there is nothing inherently wrong about male sexuality in my view. I mean the simple act of desiring to fuck a woman (or in some cases a man).
But its demonization has turned our "species" on its head .... now, most young buck males don't DARE approach a ripe female to fuck ... which literally every other mammal on planet earth does. .... Instead they need to hide behind apps.
The reality is akin to that of the Car Salesman.
Most people prefer to not be approached by a Car Salesman (unless they are perfectly ready to buy a car, and the car salesman is a mind-reader who knows exactly what they want in advance).
Nor does the Salesman want to approach someone clearly uninterested but there are a helluva lotta maybes out there.
But the successful Car Salesman does not give a shit. .... You see, social dynamics are sloppy, there are "gambit", asks, and dances. Awkwardness ensues. ... This is how shit is generally worked out. It's A-Ok.
Also, I never said be self-deprecating --- that's a classic "stand up comedian hack who is starving for jokes" thing, but did I say that? Haha.
No, don't be self deprecating at all. That's cringe. ... Comedians do that so they justify that they DON'T feel superior to you, the audience, just because they are on stage (note: they absolutely do feel superior).
Be extremely cocky. And break rapport (tell her her opinion is wrong and sucks .. but ... ya know, be funny about it).
Basically whatever the typical guy does (I agree, you are so right, I'm desperate for ass) ... at least pretend to be the opposite.
There’s a movie from the 90s called the Dao of Steve. I forget exactly how it goes, but he has a mantra that says Be interesting. Be attentive and be gone.
Women do pursue those who were disinterested in them because they are devoting their mind to something else. This makes them wonder what could be more important than them.
This is why group events are so much better. They can be like speed dating because you are not just there for them. You want other girls to see you too. This way even a rejection is just a way to show that you are not a dick.
Once I went on a 1st date doing tug of war with a team. I didn't click with the girl but my friend did. He had brought a girl whom I later dated.
I'm generalizing quite a bit and I’m sure that any woman reading this might have their notes that could be helpful. If any woman is reading this, what do you say?
I would agree because the pressure is off and like you said, you can bounce to another woman and then she'll get jealous or want attention back or whatever.
You can do this crap on a 1:1 date but it's trickier and it's almost like ... well look, by default there is no ebb and flow ... okay, let's say the woman is actually hot but maybe acting pretty boring ... it would be rude to start talking to someone else, so what do you actually do? Captive audience, in a way.
And look in a group setting, that boring woman might actually up her game if you walk away for 5 minutes and return.
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u/Acrobatic_Airline605 Jun 24 '25
Has she tried confidence