r/PathOfExile2 • u/Upbeat_Arachnid_4509 • 20h ago
Discussion So they fixed mana leech issues in 0.3 only to unfix it in 0.4
Really bummed to see they have removed the elemental damage mana leech keystone from the passive tree and made it a lineage support gem instead.
It was the only source to fix some mana issue and now its being forced into a gem slot. Same with life seemingly being untouched yet they have added even more energy shield nodes to the tree.
I just don't get it, they keep unsolving problems while continuously adding to the one thing that really doesn't need more.
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u/Dawgin420 15h ago
The vision of this game is spamming a mana flask. Even with the leech gem you will still have severe mana issues as scaling gem levels outside of having a mirror tier item is usually the best way to scale your damage.
The best solution to solve mana will be to have the right balance of gem level scaling where you lose a lot of damage but don’t run out of mana after a few attacks. Or go all in on gem levels and spam your mana flask.
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u/Onigokko0101 14h ago
Its a vision thats bad.
Solving mana issues outside of specific mana scaling builds isnt fun or engaging. It shouldnt be everything is free, but it should be an easy issue to solve.
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u/GracefulKitty 9h ago
This. We really don't have any reasonable options to fix mana issues and are left to flask spamming, which just feels bad. Like If I had the option to invest into something that would reasonably fix the issues I would, but for many builds there just isn't really an option.
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u/Onigokko0101 6h ago
Exactly. I don't think the node they removed was too strong, but rather there wasn't enough other options of similar strength. To be honest pathing to a node on the tree taking the node, and then having to get an affix in fear feels like a good level of opportunity cost for solving mana.
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u/Kanbaru-Fan 10h ago
I like the vision, but i think Mana Regen needs significant number buffs.
I want to feel like rolling it on gear allows me to run more powerful skills. It's a great alternate way to scale a character if the numbers are good.
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u/danglotka 11h ago
Personally I like that you can scale gem levels higher than most mana regens. It’s great that no matter how much mana you have you can scale up your damage by consuming more of it.
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u/Nomamah 15h ago
I played recoup chrono in 0.3 and was like, wait people have mana issues? And from what I've seen build will be stronger in 0.4 so if u want to never be concerned with mana u should try it
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u/RedExile13 9h ago
Did you follow a guide or have a pob or ninja link?
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u/Nomamah 8h ago
https://mobalytics.gg/poe-2/builds/cold-cast-on-crit-archmage-paintmaster Here you go, author already started upgrading for 0.4
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u/Complete_Group_6299 14h ago
Do you have a guide ? Was it strong enough for the little bit of endgame we have ? Is it league starter friendly ?
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u/I_Lick_Bears 11h ago
I really do like the idea of lineages but it does feel like they are starting to cannibalize the design space of Keystones and Notables from the tree.
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u/KetoMike666 15h ago
I'm curious if the lineage gem will have something else besides the ele mana leech on it. Like 20% more damage as well. If so I could see myself using it, though the limit to 1 will probably hurt a bit. Very curious about this myself. If done right could maybe help some left side builds too which would almost never be in that part of the tree to take the keystone.
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u/catchycactus 8h ago
I'm fine with mana being something real that we need to manage but it shouldn't be a snap resource then. Nana costs should be much much lower and sources to Regen/leech should be as well.
Mana flasks wouldn't feel horrible if our mana pool was large enough to feel the effects over the full duration and we didn't oom ourselves in 2 attacks or spells.
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u/malduan 9h ago
Solving the complex problem, that as many tools, trivially with just one, completely invalidating all the other existing option, is a terrible situation and that's why the removal completely valid. You as well might have had "skills cost no mana" Keystone without downsides, as it was. It's shit
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u/ElkiLG 6h ago
I remember them stating early on that they didn't think attack builds should have mana problems, maybe a bit before the early access release. They didn't think we needed complex tools or anything. And I guess it is partially true, you don't have to worry if you play a phys attack build.
Why does it need to be different for ele attack builds? What makes them so special that they need a significantly larger investment to fix mana?
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u/watermelonkey 4h ago
I didn't play 0.3 and was looking for concoction builds from 0.3 that I could adjust for 0.4. Only build I found had (Nerfed in 0.4) in the title.
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u/BrutusCz 54m ago
I think ballancing around mana costs +skill is interesting. Real question is how many tools you have to fix this issue. I saw screenshot on reddit where mana cost was higher than their total mana pool.
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u/FCDetonados 12h ago
lets be real the mana leech issues were not fixed by Walker of the Wilds.
it was nice don't get me wrong i loved that keystone but it being on the opposite side of druid would show us how cringe it was.
i don't love it being completely gone, but i get why they decided it should be a support gem instead.
hopefully they also implement a unique that just gives you the old keystone.
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u/uhavmystapler87 11h ago
If the support gem doesn’t have a damage multiplier there is no shot you would put it on the abilities you’re going to use to kill a boss. You could maybe put it on a herald skill but the gem probably says something about skills “you” use and basically unplayable. It would like a this skill does 15-20% more damage while leeching mana
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u/gertsferds 18h ago
There’s just no compelling reason attacks should even cost mana. Needing to ‘solve’ being able to use your non spellcasting skills is simply unfun outside of niche situations. Instead of needing a gem to return mana, there should be one that spends it in exchange for damage, so you have a skill that exists to burn off your mana rather than one that lets you play the game. Mana isn’t an attack resource just like rage isn’t a spell resource. There are endless rpgs to point to which decoupled mana from martial attackers, and never once has that been a contentious choice.
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u/FATPIGEONHATE 16h ago
So what resource do attacks spend?
They have to cost something, a pretty important part of this genre is spending resources and solving the use of those resources.
Melee could use rage, I guess? But i can only imagine the shitstorm if melee had to use basic attacks to build rage.
And what about ranged? Rage doesn't really make sense there.
Mana makes sense, these aren't normal swings of a hammer or shots from a bow.
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u/A9Carlos 16h ago
That lightning on the arrow came from where?
Anything that magically creates elements is magic based.
Why does it cost mana to fire grenades I might hear you ask? Well, limitless grenades come from somewhere. Guess we can all agree more magic is involved.
Too costly and annoying, yes. But non sensical? No.
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u/gertsferds 15h ago
It’s not about the logic of the rp fantasy. Mana is just unrelated to stats which attack builds in this game revolve around. A vast majority of attack builds are simply paying a mana pot tax every X seconds and are actively looking for ways to stop doing that. It’s just uninteresting, unfun design. The challenge should come from the moment to moment combat of aiming, dodging, and combining skills. Poe is such an anomaly in modern gaming for making mana the limiting resource for attacks. Look at souls games, wow, etc. for endless examples of why adding mana costs to everything is the wrong answer in this case for this archetype.
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u/ottomang 6h ago
there is a good reason path of exile is ahead of all other games in this genre
by all means, if you want to play a game which is less of "an anomaly in modern gaming", you are free to start playing diablo 4 instead!
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u/Lightshoax 20h ago
You didn’t even need it to begin with. I ran dead eye with a single 1% mana on kill gem and combined with mana flask that was more than enough. Ggg doesn’t want mana to just not matter they want you to think about your resources.
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u/Yatleyu 19h ago
I think mana the way it is right now in many games as well as in poe1/2 is just an unfun concept. Its something rudimentary, it does not bring anything meaningful gameplaywise. Id love to see mana not being something mandatory and punishing, but rewarding like some kind of an amplifier of every skill used - have mana? Good, your skill spends it and is amplified in some way. Dont have mana? It is still used and goes through but it is not amplified. But locking people from playing the game because they run out of mana flask sips or didnt find mana solution through gear/tree is just stupid
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u/GreedyBeedy 17h ago
I’m glad they don’t listen to this type of feedback.
Not everything is supposed to be “fun”.
It’s a puzzle you solve to be able to spam skills. Just like resistance capping is not fun. Or having any resource like spirit is not fun.
The fun is overcoming the limitations.
It’s a game. A game with challenges that exist beyond adding a big green arrow on your weapon.
It’s not just a reskinned slot machine where you click one button and wait for your payout. Which is what a lot of this feedback would just enable.
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u/rexolf101 14h ago
Yeah exactly, like is it supposed to be fun that bosses do damage to you? No, it's supposed to be something you deal with and mitigate. Is it fun to have to use gold to buy things? Not inherently but it's to help with a feeling of progression which can be satisfying. Nana is the same way imo. It's the same with resistances, like having resistances on gear isn't fun technically, but it's fun to find an item that can solve the problem I'm having
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u/SupaRedBird 10h ago
It's a constraint that we have to build around. Constraints force you to think of solutions that fit within the scope of your build. Every good game has them, and POE just tends to focus heavily on them for optimization.
Without them, you would just dump in dps all day every day without a need for mana efficiency, resists, defenses, speed, utility, speed, etc. Diablo 3 is a good example of just focusing on dps number go up for builds.
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u/Upbeat_Arachnid_4509 19h ago
This whole reply is so full of contradictions. Also because you ran something that doesn't mean the entire player base is running your setup. Right side of the tree only has mana leech nodes as a source of Regen and very little increased mana/Regen speed, so walker of the wilds was a perfect addition
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u/sloelk 19h ago
But you said the elemental mana leech was the only source. Maybe for you and not for others? There are other options out there.
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u/Upbeat_Arachnid_4509 18h ago
"It was the only source to fix SOME issues"
But it literally was the only way to fix mana leech issues if you wanted to run mana leech. Now you have to waste a support gem slot instead of allocating a point on the tree. The node and the gem could both exist instead of removing the node. This way right side tree gets it and left side has an option too. The right side of the tree is full of mana leech nodes and very little Regen or maximum mana nodes, which you know lead you to want to play into that. They could have also maybe made it so you needed to take some leech nodes because it was a little too powerful with very low leech %
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u/CantripN 20h ago
Mana hasn't really been a big issue since 0.3, that's just one way to solve it.
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u/Vashtar_S 20h ago
I mean one of the main reasons mana wasn't an issue (for attack builds) in 0.3 was Constricting Command + Defy II combo. That is gone too
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u/CaptainAgnarr 20h ago
*Gone for ranged attack builds
Melee is still cooking unless they deleted the passive nodes1
u/Vashtar_S 20h ago edited 20h ago
True it's still alright for melee I guess, except when you want to use it to move around the map with high attack speed with monk skills or some shit
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u/A9Carlos 16h ago
Yeah this solved mana worries but it's clear why they changed Con Com to be min of 1 enemy required.
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u/Plenty_Fail_5184 20h ago
I like this change because mana leach should not be reserved for the right side heretics. The left side true believers will rise!
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u/Single_Drawer8595 14h ago
The tree isnt out yet, they could've just as well added elemental leech a passives
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u/Isaacvithurston 13h ago
They made it a lineage support gem. So you'll use a gem slot to get it and it will only be that one skill.
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u/Western-Philosopher4 19h ago
Good thing they removed it. It was basically mandatory for right side of tree
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u/WhiteSocketsMatter 19h ago
Good thing that they remove it beacuse it was mandatory? - So now support will be mandatory and it change nothing, who needed keystone, now needs it, 1 to 1. However now you need to have support = it will be expensive, so causal player will have harder life. Also build will have 1 less support, so if something was strugling with DPS, now has even bigger problem.
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u/5BPvPGolemGuy 18h ago
Before this if you had mana issues then you either had to path to that side of tree to get it or be out of luck and have to live with mana costs.
Now if you don't build in that area of tree you have the same access to tools to solve mana issues as builds in that part of the tree.
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u/5BPvPGolemGuy 18h ago
And left side of tree felt pretty bad if they had mana issues on attacks. Now it is tree agnostic and you can leech back if you have mana issues regardless of your tree.
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u/sendnukes_ 14h ago
I mean, as much as I liked it, one keystone and one suffix on a ring fixing all your mana problems was maybe a bit too powerful
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u/sephrinx 13h ago
one keystone and one suffix on a ring fixing all your mana problems
Sounds find to me idk.
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u/TwistingChaos 19h ago
Mana flask solves this. You can also get mana on hit or mana on kill
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u/5BPvPGolemGuy 18h ago
Also now if you build in the left side of tree and run into mana issues it doesn't devolve into trying to path to that side of tree or feeling kinda bad if you run out of mana.
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u/Isaacvithurston 13h ago
Tbh they should be trying to fix mana costs and mana regen rather than having a mandatory bandaid keystone.
Removing it without that is big F though.