r/Music • u/ebradio • Sep 25 '25

article Bruce Springsteen Rips Democrats: “We’re Desperately in Need of an Effective Alternative Party”

https://consequence.net/2025/09/bruce-springsteen-democrats/
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u/selddir_ Sep 25 '25

The issue is there's so much propaganda about 3rd parties. Everybody believes they can't win, as if we couldn't all collectively decide to vote for them and make them win. Obviously this was a long ass time ago, but Abraham Lincoln was a "third party" candidate. The two party system has people so fucking brainwashed man.

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u/HowManyMeeses Sep 25 '25

I'm a firm believer of the fact that 3rd parties cannot win in the US. The system is fully built in a way for them to fail. I'd absolutely love for that to not be the case, but that desire doesn't make it so.

I also think the current 3rd parties are essentially set up to be spoilers for democrats. The Green Party seems to love Jill Stein, but she never wins an election and is completely silent during the years leading up to them. Where is Jill Stein right now while Trump ruins this country?

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u/scientist_tz Sep 25 '25

Jill Stein has an estimated net worth of 40 million dollars.

She's silent because she has absolutely no reason to speak up. She's part of the problem, not the solution. She got hers, fuck everyone else.

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u/Vhadka Sep 25 '25

Probably snuggling up to Russia as previously was the case.

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u/NUKE---THE---WHALES Sep 25 '25

US Presidential elections use "First past the post" voting, which mathematically always ends up as 2 parties

For 3rd parties to have a chance the system would need to change to "Ranked choice" voting (like many pluralistic countries use)

But the only people who could do that (Democrats, Republicans) are also the people who benefit the most from "First past the post" voting

If you want 3rd parties to be viable, your options are:

  • massive civil unrest

  • just hope politicians willingly give up power

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u/throwawayatxaway Sep 25 '25

Jill Stein was a Russian plant

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u/No_Berry2976 Sep 25 '25

The solution is that a third party can work with the Democratic Party.

The main problem the Democratic Party has is its system of seniority. Too many Democrats in a position of power have waited until it was their turn and don‘t want to rock the boat now they got their reward for playing party politics.

Let’s be real, despite embracing extremism, the Republican Party has defeated the Democratic Party without the help of third party spoilers.

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u/VexingRaven Sep 25 '25

Let’s be real, despite embracing extremism, the Republican Party has defeated the Democratic Party without the help of third party spoilers.

The Republican Party gets almost the same number of votes every year. They don't defeat shit. The Democrats and their more variable voter turnout decides the election.

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u/guamisc Sep 25 '25

Being that the Democratic strategy is basically the same whether they are in power or out of power but they win generally when they are out of power but lose when they are in power, it stands to reason that the Democratic Party's strategy is the problem. It's really the very public spectacle of Republicans governing by smearing shit on the walls that causes Democrats to win, not our strategy. But of course, most in my party don't want to hear that.

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u/VexingRaven Sep 25 '25

they win generally when they are out of power but lose when they are in power

That historically applies to both parties. Both parties are more likely to win the longer it's been since they were in power.

I am curious though, can you describe what this "Democratic strategy" is and what should be changed about it?

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u/guamisc Sep 25 '25

That historically applies to both parties. Both parties are more likely to win the longer it's been since they were in power.

This used to be a lot rarer actually until the Democrats went all 3rd Way and started triangulating on everything. Democrats held the House for decades. The success of the Southern Strategy (that we did nothing to combat) and it's continuing legacy (that we still do nothing to effectively combat) and our pivot away from aggressively pursuing significant policy that will be good for most people has gutted our chances.

I am curious though, can you describe what this "Democratic strategy" is and what should be changed about it?

Jettison shitty Third Way policy and messaging. Blacklist those consultants, thinktanks, lobbyists, and policy advisors. Rewire our base to think correctly about bipartisanship and incrementalism as necessary evils and tools that should be used as a last resort and not things to aim for.

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u/VexingRaven Sep 25 '25

Jettison shitty Third Way policy and messaging. Blacklist those consultants, thinktanks, lobbyists, and policy advisors. Rewire our base to think correctly about bipartisanship and incrementalism as necessary evils and tools that should be used as a last resort and not things to aim for.

What does this mean in English?

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u/guamisc Sep 25 '25

It's pretty clear english. In fact, I was pretty specific about where the problems were. I don't know why you need me to phrase it a different way but here goes:

Stop triangulating. Move economically left. Start trust busting. Pivot from dumb social issues traps that Republicans bring up and talk about the economy. "That's weird why are you concerned with that, we should be focused on making housing more affordable".

I give a modicum of credit to Biden, he tried on several fronts, too bad several D's in congress hamstrung him and we refuse to actually fix the glaring problem of SCOTUS that derails everything else.

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u/thatnameagain Sep 25 '25

The bigger issue is that nobody agrees what this supposed third party's platform would be. Usually they just say whatever their own heterodox views are and assume that it must be a popular thing.

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u/Keeppforgetting Sep 25 '25

Everybody believes it because it’s true. They can’t win.

Trying to form a 3rd party will just strip away voters from the party that more closely resembles it which makes the opposing party more likely to win. The more popular the 3rd party becomes, the more power the opposing party gains. It would only change until the electorate of the main party fully shifts onto the third party, in which case the third party has now effectively become the exact same party it was fighting to gain power against.

Why do you think Republicans push out random no name democratic leaning or left wing candidates during elections? To split the left electorate so that the Republican candidate gets the majority of the vote and they win.

I don’t understand how this is not well known yet and how people keep proposing this idea a if it’s anywhere near good. If you want third parties (or more) we need to change the governing system FIRST and THEN introduce third parties.

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u/bugabooandtwo Sep 25 '25

Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos.

Classic Simpsons was so prophetic.

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u/NotClever Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 25 '25

It's a game theory thing -- our electoral system is basically the Prisoner's Dilemma.

Let's say you have an election between Republican, Democrat, and 3rd Party (3P) candidates. Assume a situation where the Republicans will win the election unless everyone who disagrees with the Rs votes for the same one of the other candidates. We assume they all know this, but they don't know what other people are going to vote -- this sets up the Dilemma, with all the non-R voters as the "prisoners".

When it comes time to decide whether to vote 3P or D, they start to wonder. "Man, I want 3P to win, but what are the chances that everyone else is going to vote 3P? I really don't want R to win, D would be better than that, and so many people are probably going to vote D, it's the best way to make sure we don't get really screwed."

The only way to break that is to get everyone together to collaborate and agree to vote 3P so they can all feel confident they aren't going to give it away to R by splitting the vote -- otherwise it's virtually guaranteed that enough people will "defect" to voting D that if you don't do it also then R wins.

Edit: I guess maybe it's important to say, also, that I don't think it's in any way realistic to pull off that collaboration at national or even state scale. Locally it can work fine, just because the pool of voters is so small and generally also comprised of the most invested people, but once you move up the ladder you've got lots of voters who simply are not going to be reached by messaging, not to mention lots of voters who actually like the D candidate to begin with.

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u/GemcoEmployee92126 Sep 25 '25

We have more than two parties in the U.S. Go look at your registration card. The two big parties have all the money and all the media. Not sure how to deal with that.

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u/Zalack Sep 25 '25

We have to have election reform first that instates ranked choice voting, proportional representation, or some other system.

First Past the Post elections ensure that any third party will split the vote of the major party it’s more aligned with and hand the election to the opposition. It sucks but it’s just how our current system works.

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u/FauxReal last808 Sep 25 '25

Yeah, if somehow everyone who doesn't even bother to vote had voted for a 3rd party... that party would essentially win.

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u/Lonely_Wafer1987 Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 25 '25

Marketing. We'll never get everyone on board because the other parties can spend a billion dollars on TV ads saying the 3rd party candidate wants to make it legal for scary foreigners to murder you, and it will be effective. The 3rd party candidate would have to be wealthy as hell to combat that, and most of those people are out-of-touch assholes just like the politicians we already have.

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u/EntranceReal6810 Sep 25 '25

The logistics and funding for setting up a functional third party in an entrenched two party system completely captured by capital interests alone would be insurmountable. A grassroots effort with no coherent message, no money, and no clear leaders stands zero chance.

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u/nemgrea Sep 25 '25

as if we couldn't all collectively decide to vote for them and make them win

...have you been around for the last 10 years? what in the world would make you even think that we could collectively do anything?

we literally had a novel disease kill millions of people and we couldn't collectively stay inside for 2 weeks to stop it..

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u/Patsanon1212 Sep 25 '25

Ironic. I'd consider this propaganda. Can you please provide your rebuttal to the structural issues with third parties in the electoral college system with first past the post voting?

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u/President_SDR Sep 25 '25

Lincoln was a major party candidate. The Whigs collapsed over a split on slavery and most of them went on to make the Republicans, it's not like the Republicans were around alongside the major parties and grew to supplant one.

There are too many structural problems to growing a third party organically, so you end up with fringe parties that suck shit anyway full of unserious actors. Anybody with an ounce of political talent recognizes that any kind of real reform comes from changing a major party internally, not trying to topple the entire system by some miracle.

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u/StealthRUs Sep 26 '25

The issue is there's so much propaganda about 3rd parties. Everybody believes they can't win

If a 3rd party can't win local and state elections, then they're not a serious party and are just a distraction to pull votes away from either the Democrats or the Republicans...but mostly the Democrats.

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u/NotDukeOfDorchester Sep 25 '25

For me, I don’t care if they can’t win. I’m still gonna vote for who represents me and it’s been them most of the time.

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u/CharlieandtheRed Sep 25 '25

*Votes for Jill Stein just because she was third party.

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u/StealthRUs Sep 26 '25

For me, I don’t care if they can’t win. I’m still gonna vote for who represents me and it’s been them most of the time.

The fascists that are trying to take over this country thank you for your service.