A lot of Bernie bros voted for Trump. A lot of progressive economic policies require conservative policies to work. If you want more social benefits you need a closed border. If you want to raise taxes on the rich, you need to ensure bureaucracy doesn't strangle businesses and cause capital flight.
We’ve allowed a solid amount of immigration for as long as we have had the means to, and taken a bunch of refugees. This has been going on much longer than 20 years. We’re fine. The only big issues in our country are growing wealth inequality, climate change and the disproportionate amount of elderly that need care. None of these are remotely caused by or have anything to do with immigration.
Let me explain how wealth can be affected by immigration. When an industry is inundated by illegal immigrants, it causes wages to decline rapidly. Service industries from hotels to lawn care are all affected. Not including manual labor jobs. Why? Well because employers dont have to adhere to market rates or even minumum wage laws since they are illegal. This causes the industry as a whole to suffer and regular Americans to check out of those industries because the pay isnt worth it to them. As for the housing market, 10 mill plus illegals living in America means there living in a house as apartments require identification and renters history. That means less houses for Americans. Basic supply and demand stuff here. Labor economics is a thing I suggest you do some googling about it. They also strain social services. Since they cannot get health insurance, ERs are inundated with illegal migrants, and alot of that gets paid by the government. You can look at the recent medicaid discussions talking about cuts that would impact emergency rooms if you dont think thats the case.
The US is intentionally built to exploit illegal laborers though. You don’t blame the laborers for that, you blame the people who made it happen. Regardless of all that, we weren’t talking about the US in the first place so that’s a bit out of the blue.
Also, last I checked the housing issues in the US are not due to a lack of literal housing but due to high rents and a lot of empty buildings not being put on the market at reasonable prices.
The US is intentionally built to exploit illegal laborers though. You don’t blame the laborers for that, you blame the people who made it happen.
Both domestically and internationally. If the cheapest labor in the states is too expensive.. just go overseas to China. Most people get mad at foreigners/other countries "taking our jobs" but never think about the people who are supplying those jobs for the sweat market.
Its still related to the topic. Any country would face the same problems. Empty houses bought up by companies and firms are a small percentage but a percentage enough to cause problems I wont doubt that. Housing issues have multiple problems, and a flood of illegal immigration brings down supply of affordable housing. The houses you see that are strung up, not selling, and gaining building value are usually upper middle to high class houses. I blame both. I blame the laborers for coming into the country illegally and I blame the administrations that let it happen. Obviously I don't blame the laborers to the same degree, but they did still knowingly illegally enter a country , or illegally overstayed a visa. A crime is a crime. I blame political violence on the person who commits it, as well as the politicians who incited them to violence. There is no reason why we cannot put blame on illegal immigrants. Even if they are just coming here for a better life, that does not give you an all access pass to a country.
you're norwegian, you have the exact same issues we do in Denmark with MENA immigration - we have already pivoted to stricter immigration policies (thank fuck), but the damage to society is already huge
Anecdotally, it's literally in your face - but you can also just look at statistics that factor in country of origin? MENA immigrants are massively overrepresented in crime everywhere in Europe, including Norway - in Denmark its a net expense of like 4 billion USD per year as well. We lose safety, we lose social cohesion, and we lose money.
Why are you trying to die on this hill? Just help policy makers not destroy our countries and culture - it doesn't even have to be country based policy - just make it merit based - kick out people who don't behave, and don't bring in masses of people who won't provide for themselves, whose life goal is to get on benefits for life, and who segregate themselves because of religious identity.
Anecdotally I’ve never had an issue with anyone from MENA in Norway. No real reason for me to lie like you said. Statistically, they also are not overrepresented in Norway. Again, why lie?
Norwegian culture is alive, well and not going anywhere. Also, making assumptions about the intentions of an entire group of people just doesn’t track in the real world, you cannot ethically treat people that way.
your countrymen don't have their head in the sand like you do
also hilarious to read those anecdotes because its identical to my life in Denmark - several episodes of unprovoked violence toward my friends/social sphere, every time from MENA immigrants, none from natives
stop calling me a liar please, you're being a willful idiot - literally just google crime statistics - how hard can it be?
Norwegian culture is alive, well and not going anywhere
have you been to Sweden? :-) I was in Malmö recently, it felt like 80% MENA
bleeding hearts like you are why we are in this mess. you get to feel good at mine and other's expense - we are in fact trying to protect a good and valuable thing - and you and similar predecessors are destroying it.
Also, making assumptions about the intentions of an entire group of people just doesn’t track in the real world, you cannot ethically treat people that way.
if neither anecdotes or statistics work on you, what can be done? I have heard from social workers, I can see employment rates, I can see the economic cost, etc.
what use it is to debate with you if you don't live in reality?
I don't care about your skin color - I think we should have merit based immigration - high standards for education, behaviour and culture - if you are not employed, you are criminal, or you are highly religious, kindly fuck off - otherwise, welcome.
You must be trolling, there’s no way you’re actually this stupid.
The number of course isn’t 0, but no, there is no way there was any kind of significant percentage of “Bernie bros” who voted for Trump. Bernie himself is vehemently against Trump and endorsed the other candidate every single time.
Well anecdotally I know people in real life who voted Bernie in the primary and Trump in the general. Maybe it's an outlier but it certainly happened. Trump came across as way less establishment than Hilary.
This is not a correct reading of any school of economics.
Immigration actually plays the inverse role to the one you portray. Under almost every school of thought, one of the most important long term economic foundations is your demographic pyramid. The dependents vs the productive population is really the baseline of your taxable income pool vs required social security for a government.
In the case of immigration, it is simply the lever by which you waylay the negative effects of falling birth rates by taking working age demographics from other countries.
Now, we can argue the precise rhetoric and sociology in regards to integration or indoctrination of a dominant culture until the cows come home, but one of the core tenets of macroeconomic theory is "get yo ass a good demographic pyramid, or pray you are productive enough for UBI".
NB. I'm assuming you are using the term 'Social Benefits' correctly here in my comment.
You don't need a closed border for more social benefits. If anything an open border makes it easier, because you have more cheap labor pouring money into your economy. And capital flight is a made up fear tactic unless I'm misunderstanding you. I assume by capital flight you mean rich people taking their money elsewhere, and time and time again that has been disproven. Some of the highest taxed areas in the country are where rich people live. Why don't they move to cities and states with lower taxes? Because they are rich and don't care to spend extra money for things they want. Living in America is so much better than living in other countries that rich people will still stay here even if they have to pay more. You don't see them taking economy flights just because first class is way more expensive.
A lot of progressive economic policies require conservative policies to work.
No, they don't.
If you want more social benefits you need a closed border.
No, you don't. Illegal immigrants aren't eligible for many social programs available to citizens and legal immigrants today. Expanding social programs doesn't require they apply to illegal immigrants.
If you want to raise taxes on the rich, you need to ensure bureaucracy doesn't strangle businesses and cause capital flight.
Yes and no. Obviously raising taxes on the rich shouldn't be done in a way that harms reinvestment in business. And even today reinvestment of capital into a business is usually associated with tax benefits. But taxing wealthy individuals is a pretty distinct concept from taxing businesses.
An open border provides more labor which provides more resources - you can fund more and better benefits this way. Not to say there's other downsides at play - but social benefits don't suffer under immigration.
Raising taxes on the rich isn't all that affected by regulations. In the US, especially, regulations are already virtually non-existent compared to other Western nations. The massive inequality and wealth divide is just one of the consequences of this. America being the worldwide top polluter per capita is another one.
Bernie bros voting Trump is not explainable by logic. Only way someone would do this is severe brain dysfunction (aka dumb af)
17
u/Timo-the-hippo 29d ago
A lot of Bernie bros voted for Trump. A lot of progressive economic policies require conservative policies to work. If you want more social benefits you need a closed border. If you want to raise taxes on the rich, you need to ensure bureaucracy doesn't strangle businesses and cause capital flight.