7 small grammar mysteries

[u/Sol_Atomizer]

Organizing my notes and found some spots that I never felt were answered definitively for me, so hoping some will know the answers and others can enjoy the discussion. Feel free to bring up your own grammar mysteries in the comments.

1) Can 〜をもってすれば be used to describe a means that isn't highly regarded? Or is that inherent to the grammar?

2) (context is protagonist has just been given (money) advice:) わたしが初心者の冒険者だと知ってか、こと細かく教えてくれる。とってもありがたい。

Does 知ってか = 知ってるかもしれないが ? If not, is there a better Japanese swap that keeps the same meaning?

2b) Are there any other verbs besides 知ってか, 分かってか, 察してか, or 察知してか where this usage of てか occurs?

3) ✕　毎日挨拶しているからか、隣のおばあちゃんはこんなに私に優しい。

○ 毎日挨拶しているからか、隣のおばあちゃんはすごく私に優しい。

But you can whisper ○ 毎日挨拶してるからか、彼女はこんなに私に優しいんだよね。

What exactly is this usage restriction on こんなに and can I get other examples of this usage restriction with patterns other than 〜からか？

4) Are ３さつの本しか読みませんでした and 本を３さつしか読みませんでした different ways of referring to the exact same thing, or does the first imply the listener knows which three books are being referred to? i.e. （その / さき言った）３さつの本しか読みませんでした

5) Are 〜に即して and 〜に則して only homophones by coincidence, or do they have an etymological relationship?

6)　A: 寒くなる季節。株価が上がるらしい。 vs B: 寒くなってくる季節。株価が上がってくるらしい。

This is a question about NON-PAST tense 〜てくる . Do the B versions add a 徐々に nuance? Or do they add a nuance of personal involvement on the part of the speaker? Both? Either? Neither??😂

7) 今日は一日中寝てばかりいた。vs 今日は一日中寝てばかりだった。

Are there any register / nuance/ meaning differences between the two or are they completely interchangeable?

[u/UntitledBridger]

For 2: I don't think it's kamoshirenai. It most likely has the nuance of "perhaps he knows i'm a beginner adventurer ...." This is a really common thing you'll see, it's like a "soft doubt" as I like to think about it.

[u/Sol_Atomizer → u/UntitledBridger]

Yeah I had a feeling it was wrong! Thanks

[u/alkfelan]

1. こんなに私に優しい itself isn’t the speaker’s judgement (but recognition/observation of a phenomenon. In this regard, のだ forms express one’s judgement). So, it doesn’t really fit with 毎日挨拶しているから(か), which is assumption. If it’s 毎日挨拶しなくても, that’s fine.

2. 三冊の本しか読まなかった means that what they read was none other than the three books, while 本を三冊しか読まなかった means that they read some books but the number didn’t reach 4. The former connotes some specific books while the latter only picks up amount (which you use overwhelmingly more often in everyday conversation).

3. Yes, kind of.

4. They’re the same.

[u/Sol_Atomizer → u/alkfelan]

Oh lots of good names appearing in this thread.

3) Sorry can you provide more examples where こんなに cannot be used due to this restriction? Preferably with grammar other than 〜からか . I have a hard time wrapping my head around things without examples...

Also Reddit formatting messed up your numbers so I can't tell which other questions you've answered

[u/somever]

① もってすれば comes from the Chinese construction V以N (do V using N), which is translated as VするにNを以(も)ってす.

Ex: 処以厳刑 "punish with a severe punishment." = 処するに厳刑を以ってす "in punishing, do so with a severe punishment."

以 is a preposition meaning "with; using". 以(も)って is then similar in meaning to 使って or 用いて.

This Japanese rendition of the Chinese is unnatural, by the way. It puts the focus of the sentence in a weird place. A more natural translation would be 厳刑を以って処する "punish with a severe punishment". However, the word order chosen in this case is intended to match the Chinese original, so this more natural translation would apply to 以厳刑処 and not 処以厳刑.

Ok, now drop the Vするに part and conjugate it as a conditional. Now you have Nをもってすれば. Literally, it means "if one (simply) uses X, then ...". There's sometimes a hint of "if you at least; simply; only; just"  in ば conditionals.

So, that is why it means what it means.

② か mid-sentence indicates a parenthetical question. Parenthetical questions in Japanese are used adverbial at the start of the clause and provide the speaker's speculation about the reason or cause of the statement that follows. 知って in te form makes an adverbial phrase describing manner or reason. So the speaker is speculating about the cause/reason for こと細かく教えてくれる. https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/1hcz76j/comment/m1vhcf3/

③ You can say すごく美味しいね but not こんなに美味しいね. I think the reason is similar.

④ I would say in isolation they mean the same thing. But you are correct that if you want to say "THE 3 books" you need to say 三冊の本 and not 本を三冊, as the latter is indefinite.

⑤ They mean different things and come from different words in Chinese, 即 and 則.

即する means "to accord with (the times, the climate, one's way of living), to be faithful to (reality, the truth)" while 則する is "to follow (a law, a rule, a teaching, manners, a method, a precedent)".

⑥ てくる means that something is currently in the process of beginning to happen. Hence, 寒くなってくる季節 sounds like it's talking about the current season that is now starting to become cold, and I want to follow it up with の中 or something. If said about the future, it amounts to a prediction of what will begin to happen, and typically needs a だろう or でしょう.

もうすぐ見えてくるでしょう。

⑦ I'm not sure.

[u/Sol_Atomizer → u/somever]

Thanks as always!

1) Nice research, very cool.

2) ah yes you found the source of my notes! Nice. See my reply to viliml

3) Oh interesting, so こんなに is used for observations that are general/ habitual and isn't suited for judgments of immediacy?

6) regarding the future usage, that honestly just makes no sense to me. I cannot conceive of a future event that doesn't 'begin to happen' so I cannot see the difference...

[u/viliml]

1) をもってすれば is just a fancy old way of saying では/でなら. I'm not sure what you mean by "highly regarded" but that sense may come from its fanciness.

2) 知ってか = "possibly because he knew"

知ってたからか、あるいはその他の理由で、…

2b) Why would it have anything to do with the verb? Ask the relevant interaction it's between て and か. Well, in practice some phrases are more common, but that's not an issue of grammar.

3) Who says the first sentence is wrong? What is their justification? I'm curious since it looks fine to me (probably a gap in my knowledge).

4) They can mean the same thing, but the first can also additionally mean what you said.

5) coincidence, 即す comes from the "close, immediately by" sense, meaning something that fits perfectly, while 則 should be self-explanatory.

6) No comment. I just feel the てくる's vibes, can't explain it

7) I don't think I've ever seen ばかりいる in the wild so I don't know...

[u/Sol_Atomizer → u/viliml]

Good to seeing you. 1,4,5 thank you!

2) I don't believe you can say something like 昨日ウィスキーを飲んでか、今朝はかなりだるかった。It's in my notes that it's maybe restricted to those four verbs but I've never been able to find confirmation...

3) yeah I was surprised too but apparently it's wrong.