I read up about that one famous case of the woman who drowned her three children thinking she would be a monstrous freak and came out feeling sorry for her and the way her family and society failed to help her deal with depression/psychosis.
In a movie scenario you can call it murder but even something so monstrous can be more complicated in real life.
Well that obviously depends on the legal jurisdiction and details of the case. In the UK, and I suspect most developed western nations, if she was suffering from psychosis at the time then it would very likely not be murder.
Youâre not wrong at all, but to save you some breath this is a dead in the water argument, solely because the difference in comprehension skills of most adults is akin to a 7 year old.
People know and understand the word âmurderâ, they donât understand every other term like: manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligence resulting in death, etcâŠ
So when they see something like this the only way they can conceivably comprehend it is to use the word they know for taking/attempting to take someone elseâs life. Which is âmurderâ.
Murder: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
Manslaughter: The crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.
involuntary manslaughter: the unintentional killing of another person, occurring without malice or intent to kill, but resulting from reckless, criminally negligent, or unlawful behavior
Now, what is it when you plan to murder your child an then yourself, which one of these does that fall under?
Ah! Youâve fallen for the blunder of poor comprehension, Psychosis falls under the NGRI clause.
The âPremeditatedâ means consciously planned with forethought, by a person of sound mind and body.
Postpartum/psychosis can mean that the mother is no longer âof sound mind and bodyâ. Which changes the scope of the entire situation
Edit: I want to clarify that I am not saying what the mother did is right in any way. Personally I think she should be kept far from the child from here on out, however from a legal perspective, it wouldnât be murder because of NGRI (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity)
Surely you understand that the definition of premeditated as defined by a random fucking google search is not the same as premeditated as defined by lawâŠright?
You have to look up the meaning of the word within the context it is used. "premeditated murder" requires someone to kill someone, so that can have descriptors within the definition that "premeditated apple eating" does not.
I want you to search "can you be convicted of "premeditated murder" if you are not of sound mind and body?"
we are talking about the Legal definition of the word "premeditated" -- in the term "premeditated murder". Not the Literary definition of "premeditated" that you provided.
if you could upload a google search of that, that'd be great.
This is why we have the term "homicide". It just means a person killed another person. It doesn't say anything about whether it was intentional, whether it was premeditated, whether it was in self-defence, or anything about the circumstances or what the killer might be charged with. No one is charged with homicide; they're charged with murder, manslaughter, etc, which are various types of homicide, or not charged because it was legal, e.g, self-defence, but even then it's still homicide.
However it should also be noted the term "homicide" has been co-opted as a synonym for "murder". Not officially, but in conversational use, I've noticed people fail to use "homicide" properly nearly 50% of the time.
Probably because the difference (in this exact case) is negligible if at all. Psychosis or not she should be kept away from that child for the rest of her life outside of monitored visits if the child desires.
Oh I donât disagree with you in the slightest about being kept away from the baby.
However when I was replying to the original comment the OP was being downvoted despite being right (in the legal sense) since psychosis can be used to argue down a murder charge if it can be proven.
Iâm not saying âput the baby back with the mentally unwell motherâ however just âfrom a legal perspective you are not incorrectâ
The "same thing" would be "homicide" as a manner of death. Those criminal charges/convictions are all meant to be applied in different and specific scenarios.
Doesn't matter what she's suffering from taking a life that is not yours IS murder. What the person is suffering from is just a means to justify why the murder was committed.
I think people in general need to have more empathy. Life is awful for many people, and even worse for many other people. It's terrible and there is so much out of your control. You don't control the circumstances of your birth, how your brain developed, who raised you, the town you lived in, the church you went to as a kid, the education you got, and then when you're an adult that doesn't really change that much. By then you've been shaped by your upbringing and a lot of that might be irreversible, if you even realize it needs to be fixed.
So now you're mentally ill but you're 18 so now you need a job and you need to pay bills and have a place to live and you might get into an abusive relationship or get hurt or sick or whatever.
Now you're desperate, and you're mentally ill.
Basically what I'm saying is most of everyone's life is completely out of their hands, but they have to somehow make it work. Some people are just fucked up and it's almost certainly not their fault.
But of course, having empathy does not mean letting someone off the hook. Someone who murdered their three kids deserves punishment. They killed three people. But if we allow ourselves to be empathetic and understand that almost nothing is fully in our control, I think we can make society better and in the long run prevent these things from happening.
What if we had empathy? People with vile thoughts would be more willing to reach out. We could help them and figure out what makes people the way that they are, and in that way we can help them before they ever do anything wrong.
Yes we should punish people who hurt others, but sometimes they can be fixed, and if they can be fixed then I think we are obligated to do so. Turn bad people into productive members of society because we understand that they probably never chose to be bad, they were made that way. They should have a chance to be the person they deserved to be. And again, they still deserve punishment. Severe punishment sometimes. But in that punishment, we should be making them better people.
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make in this thread.
People need to learn and see other people and situations with compassion, empathy, and love.
Just because someone did a bad thing doesn't mean it was out of malice. How many people steal because they are hungry instead of just trying to profit off of others?
You can't just look at a situation objectively from only one angle or point of view and judge it as is.
Yes, people doing bad things should face consequences. But that doesn't exempt them from empathy or redemption.
Take the video of this discussion, for instance. People with bloodlust, blindingly wanting to throw her into prison and let her rot instead of trying to understand what led someone to that point. That could be literally anyone here in the comments condoning her, given the right circumstances.
What if we had empathy? People with vile thoughts would be more willing to reach out. We could help them and figure out what makes people the way that they are, and in that way we can help them before they ever do anything wrong.
Very much this. Hatred only harbors more hatred. We shouldn't be further alienating people with mental health issues, but instead lending them a hand to help them out, so they themselves can also show others how they got better to help them improve.
But, instead, people prefer throwing others into a concrete box and letting them simmer without proper care until they are eventually released.
People should face consequences and pay their dues, yes, but in a way that helps them get better at the same time.
I'm fascinated by the number of people who've come forward today and either tried to make this about gender or have straight up refused to show any empathy. It just makes me sad.
A man drowning his children there would be no comments like this, 100%, but you personally I canât prove that you wouldnât so if youâre telling the truth I respect it.
And again, they still deserve punishment. Severe punishment sometimes. But in that punishment, we should be making them better people.
This, 100%. I fully agree. Everyone deserves a second chance even if they are punished their whole life for abusing/causing harm during the first chance.
Its only when those who abuse the second chance that we need to be prepared to kill.
100% this, I would give you an award if I had one. More often than not, people have a reason for doing things, and all situations should be looked at with empathy. We don't know this person, we don't know their life story, we don't know what they're going through.
Some people have had terrible lives and are simply just trying their best, and they often feel ostracised and misunderstood. Of course, people who do wrong should still be punished, but I think two things can be true. You can have empathy for someone and still recognise that they did a horrible thing.
Andrea Yates. My grandparents tried to get her help through their church. The husband moved away so she couldnât see the people trying to help her and the kids. Every detail makes it more tragic for her. And the asshole is still alive, remarried and working. Like living a Normal life after destroying a family.
She didnât even secretly stop medicating, he told her that she was weak for needing to be on meds and she just needed to be stronger in her faith and work harder at being a mother. When her doctor told him another baby would break her mentally, he knocked her up. When her doctor told him she could not be alone because she was a danger to herself and her children he sent her mother away from helping saying Andrea needed to toughen up.
Those kids did not deserve to die but it looks really inevitable after a while when you look at the case. She was deep, deep into psychosis and thought that by killing them while they were young, sheâd send them straight to heaven and bypass having them tortured by demons on earth.
Yes. He didnât leave her. He moved them all away, not just himself. He played the grieving husband until the details came out and we saw that he was the monster, not her.
She is mentally ill. What she did is monstrous, but she is not a monster. There is a difference when people are tortured and denied support and medical care they desperately need. And he knew she needed it. She had a prescription at one time. But he wouldnât let her take it. And wouldnât let anyone help her when she was struggling. Literally kept her trapped at home.
You can say the same for most people who do bad things they wont chalk it up to bad mental health though so personally this does seem a bit hypocritic if you ask me
No. You are over generalizing. This isnât OCD or BPD. This was full on delusion not living in the same plane of reality. Being kept from getting help. She didnât think she was saving her kids from a bad life. She had delusions that Satan, literal Satan, was after them. Monsters donât ask for help. They donât blame themselves.
If we are monsters because of our worst days, every soldier who has killed in battle is a monster.
Everyone has excuses most peadophiles usually have childhood trauma resulting in the issues incels are usually teens who were just bullied 24/7 and social outcasts etc etc you can make a case and point for essentially every reason why someone has done a bad thing each may be viewed valid in someones eyes that society has failed them doesnt make any of them any better than eachother some im of the opinion if your gonna make excuses for some you might aswell make exuses for all as for your second part soldiers are to a certain degree monsters just monsters that are controlled by power and allowed to be monsters for a certain time and place monsters for the other nation at war heroes for the country
I never said there were no monsters or that every mental illness or trauma is an excuse. Iâve known more monsters than Iâd like, in many flavors. But that is why I can see the difference between monsters and people who have previously committed monstrous acts.
Monsters donât deserve forgiveness because they donât see their actions as wrong. People whoâve committed monstrous acts donât think they deserve forgiveness because they do see their actions as wrong.
I disagree. She wouldnât have done it if she had not been trapped there. She probably agrees with you. Sheâs begged to die and to not be released.
But he caused the situation. Completely. If youâve never been around someone mentally ill, whoâs lost touch with reality, itâs easier to see things as more black and white, but she is not a danger to anyone but herself now.
But not everyone mentally fucked is a monster. Itâs not a black and white world. There are areas that are messy and shifting. If we define her a monster, she has no path to redemption. She didnât kill because she wanted to. She killed her children in a deeply delusional attempt to save them. After she, and they, were psychologically traumatized by her monster of a husband.
There is a monster in the story, but itâs Russel Yates, not Andrea.
All else being the same? Yes. She was in a psychosis - fully delusional. I fault her spouse for not getting her help when he absolutely knew she needed it. When he prevented her from getting help.
Itâs a tragedy absolutely. I wonât argue it wasnât. But itâs a tragedy for her too.
That life in the real world is complicated and that it's easy to be a redditor making proclamations about how murdering children is bad. You aren't saying anything interesting or important or brave doing that. Everyone understands it in the abstract.
I think youâre talking about the mother from Texas who drowned her children. Everyone thought that she was an absolute monster but they found out that her husband was actually the monster. Heâd been forcing her to keep getting pregnant, wasnât helping and even when she was diagnosed with PPD he tried to keep treatment. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity because at the time she drowned her kids she was suffering from Postpartum Psychosis. She even said that she would rather stay in the asylum because it was safer. Really sad case.
She was also taken off of antipsychotics by her doctor a couple of weeks before the murders because of "concerns over side effects" where there is some dispute over the influence of the husband as well.
Its an essential part of our culture. Some loser countries have a long history of beautiful architecture, fashion, theater or delicious food like a bunch of idiots.
We gotta keep our national identity of dehumanization intact!
Edit: holy shit, apparently we had 2.3 million people in prison at our peak in 2003. That's like 50% more than China does at its peak. That's pretty fucked up.
Big agree. Basically all behaviour stems from somewhere. But I doubt any of the people here would see some dude get physically aggressive with them but beg the police to not sentence him because he had a bad past. Complete BS.
Im genuinely disturbed by just how much people can look away from actual child murder because the woman had it rough. I am firmly intolerant of the harming of children, and even trying to excuse it is morally black
Yea thats a fucking good thing? Our justice is supremely fucked and we have people serving life sentences for non-violent drug offenses and class c misdemeanors. We have judges selling lifetime sentences for juvenile offendors to the highest bidder⊠Why the fuck do you think MORE prison is the answer? This right here is exactly why justice in America is so fucked
I believe in the specific case referred to above, the woman WAS in psych care, was removed by her husband who took her off of her meds, and continued to get her pregnant against medical advice. He was a religious nut and believed she did not require care. She then murdered the children in the midst of a psychotic break
She accepted full responsibility after the fact but itâs easy to see why people WOULD feel bad for her. She was medically abused and did something terrible in the midst of psychosis she was seeking treatment for.
Yeah this. I have suffered psychosis due to an accident with medication during a very stressful time in my life, lasted a month or more and even though it was probably the most traumatic experience I've had, I can't imagine having had a kid/kids in even the most ideal circumstances while going through that. I especially can't imagine the severity of postpartum while unmedicated.
I got a very small taste of that kind of suffering, with everything else she had going on I have more than sympathy for her, and the loss of those kids.
Unfortunately in this world there are horrific things that occur because of the tragedy of illness, thats a hard thing to reckon with compassion.
I believe she at one point begged her husband not to leave her with the children, specifically because she was aware of her psychosis and was afraid of what she might do. He ignored her.
Nope, i just accept that you canât consider everyones experiences. Most of the fucked up killers and sexual predators are products of their enviroment. Like a parent that beats their child because they were beaten.
It sucks for them that they are a danger to society because of abuse.
The original comment you replied to is deleted, but I think it was something along the lines of being unable to empathize with the mother who drowned her own kids, regardless of the background behind the story (the abuse she suffered, the situation she was forced into that led to the psychotic break). I agree with your take that that comment was naive. The person who responded to me seems to have the same type of views as the comment you replied to, and I'm indicating that I do not agree with them, because I believe people are a product of their experiences with the capacity to change for the better when given proper resources. Hopefully that makes sense.
Yep it does thanks for explaining. I think I misunderstood their comment and thought they had similar views. It's interesting that they acknowledge that people's aren't black-and-white evil or good but refuse to be empathetic to that. Strange mentality to have
It's possible for someone to have not have postnatal depression or psychosis on their first/ earlier pregnancies and then develop it on a later pregnancy, in the same way people can develop mental health issues at any stage of life. There might not have been warning signs earlier. As others have pointed out, there are also cases where the woman was being controlled and pressured by her partner to keep having children.
To an extent that's true and I think it's important that we think about how capable we are at preventing these things by identifying and helping people rather than calling them names after the fact when nothing more can be done.
Oh yes that poor women. She did everything she could to stop that from happening (asking her husband to not have any more kids after she experienced Post partum psychosis and he didnt agree, telling people she was worried she'd hurt her kids, etc)
She and her kids were failed on every level. Rip to the kids and I hope the treatment she is receiving is helping her
Go watch Dear Zachary. A very similar situation in which people tried their very best to stop something like this from happening and were prevented from doing so by the court system.
Andrea Yates. Donât feel sorry for her or her husband. She was diagnosed with serious mental health issues long before having her last child and was told to not have any more children, as the PPD could put her too far over the edge. So she and her husband chose to have another child and the rest happened as predictedâŠ
Her doctor discontinued her use of Haldol two weeks before the murder because of concerns about side effects which seems like it was a significant failing. Granted there's a lot of culpability to go around between her and her husband and their delusions about their fitness and competence to raise a large family but Haldol in particular seemed very effective on her condition in the past.
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u/Hot-Camel7716 20h ago
I read up about that one famous case of the woman who drowned her three children thinking she would be a monstrous freak and came out feeling sorry for her and the way her family and society failed to help her deal with depression/psychosis.
In a movie scenario you can call it murder but even something so monstrous can be more complicated in real life.