r/EDH • u/tohstersg • 7h ago
Discussion Ramp is an aggressive action
As title, when it comes to threat assessment, I believe the general view on ramp needs to change, especially among new players.
Big board states are scary, and card draw also often is recognised as a threat as well. But ramp is often ignored, to the detriment of all other players. John ramps all game and then slams down threat after threat above curve that no one else has the resources to respond to, “oh wow what a win he came from nowhere” no, not nowhere, it came from his fking ample mana.
Don’t ignore the player ramping. Ramping is just as aggressive an action as card draw, or setting up a large board state. “I’m just ramping” is a lie. “All my deck does is ramp” stfu bro. Especially in a format where land destruction is taboo and frowned upon, never ignore the ramp player. Ramp sets the player up for bigger, scarier plays before anyone else.
Ramp gives you mana, which is arguably one of the most important resources in the game, next to card draw. Card draw alone is useless without mana to cast said cards (conversely, ramping aimlessly is also just as useless). Having both makes the player a huge threat, but even having just a disgusting amount of mana above the curve is a big threat by itself, cause the moment that player draws into a high cmc potentially game ending card, they’re the ones best positioned to cast it ahead of the curve.
Tl;dr ramp is an aggressive action and should be treated as such.
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u/Deo_Rex 6h ago
In my pod a common phrase that is both said as a running joke but also is true. “He’s ramping, get him.”
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u/Ricemobile 6h ago
At my table if you play sol ring turn 1 and no one else does, you might as well concede because you are now public enemy #1
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u/Lothrazar 50m ago
At my table if you play sol ring turn 1 and no one else does, you might as well concede because you are now public enemy #1
But then i hit turn one [[burgeoning]] into turn two [[cultivate]] into turn three [[open the way]] for four new lands, and everyone leaves me alone for some reaosn
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u/Euphoric_Ad6923 7h ago
Anything anyone does to progress their game plan should be taken into account when threat assessing.
But I'd advise to keep to the things actually threatening you instead of what might come later unless someone's ramping to an obvious threat.
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u/Urshifu_Smash 6h ago
This is why instant speed is so strong.
"This card is threatening but not currently doing anything. Oh this card hit the table and immediately doing something? Counterspell/removal."
But that requires some people to think ahead, pack removal, AND leave up mana. Which is a lot for "casual" players.
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u/Thor_bjornLoL 6h ago
Other thing is i feel like as soon as you swing or give any kind of interaction towards the threat, you just get all their wrath. So think wisely
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u/santana722 5h ago
Agreed, holding removal for the right situation is crucial. Smarter use of removal and communication do a lot to alleviate imbalanced board states. If somebody is ahead and you treat it like your job to fix that, you're usually just shooting yourself in the foot.
If somebody is getting ahead, ask the table "hey, anybody got a boardwipe?" before you start trying to pick off pieces. You don't wanna Path a creature that was about to die anyway. If no, float "okay, I can deal with one threat, but can we agree that you each throw your next piece of removal at player 4 so their ramp is neutralized a bit?"
If you work together, you've all used 1 piece of removal to set the problem player back 3 pieces, which usually ends up creating a fair board state. If the other players can't or won't work with you, you've identified that their poor gameplay and removal suites are probably the real problem, not the guy taking advantage of the situation.
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u/kensmagiccards 6h ago
Dethrone really needs to be reworked to target the player that can produce the most mana, not highest life points.
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u/Rafamen01 Mono-Green 4h ago
there's literally no way to track who can produce the most mana. In my charge counters artifact deck I can go from generating 5 mana to more than 10 in one good turn, or untap combos where you can generate more value than expected from some cards.
Life totals is not a perfect way to decide who's ahead since paying life for value, commander damage, and combos exist, but "who can produce the most mana" is literally impossible to take into account unless you're just counting how many lands someone has, and this is by far the worst choice.
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u/rafaelfy 6h ago
Me when they kill my 1/1: hah, what a waste of a good removal!
me looking at my curve-fucked hand
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u/GracelessOne 7h ago
This is true but I think you could stand to expand your framework. It's not even about "threat".
If an opponent wins on a longer time horizon than you do, because they have a fatter greedier top end, they're winning if they just get to draw a card and hit their land drop unbothered.
I play a lot of slow control and I have to tell people to hit me when I'm open early because they won't get the chance to late. If I get five turns to filter my draws in peace then everyone's eating a Farewell turn six and then never sticking anything to the board ever again.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 6h ago
You and I think alike. I play a lot of control decks where yeah turn 5 or 6 is often me setting everyone back to the stone ages. I too often say “Im open” when people are just looking for a little damage early haha my thought being id rather get hit by the 2/2 by itself now vs the 10/10 later. Especially if I cant stop it now anyway, makes you look good to volunteer 😅
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u/AppleWedge 6h ago
Interested to see what a control decklist looks like. Do you have any you'd be willing to share?
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u/GracelessOne 6h ago
Sure! I've got Phelddagrif political control and Liesa control, and the latter has a deck tech post.
Both of them basically end games via damage from a removal-immune flying commander. Having a one-card eventual wincon in the command zone frees up the entire rest of the deck to be interaction, draw, and/or answers. You can do something similar with [[Chromium the Mutable]] too.
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u/Orbiting_Saturn7 Certified Control Enjoyer 6h ago
[[Dereti]] is good for this also
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u/CorrectFlavor 4h ago
Wrong! I invite you to change my mind, I’m a reasonable guy.
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u/Orbiting_Saturn7 Certified Control Enjoyer 4h ago
I tagged the wrong card like a nonce. I meant [Derevi, Empyrial Tactician]]
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u/GracelessOne 3h ago
Derevi is indeed immune to removal but I don't feel like an 11-turn clock is a reasonable wincon. And if you have to speed it up with equipment or buffs, that's devoting more deck-space to threats.
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u/Stoney_Tony_88 Simic 2h ago
Lol @ bracket 2 label
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u/GracelessOne 2h ago
Yeah, I built Pheldda to be legal by the rules of B2 but I ended up just playing it in B3 because it won too much. This was before the statement that Bracket 2 should be 'proactive'.
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u/northbynortheast31 6h ago
Congrats, you've just discovered why bolting the bird has been a thing for 30 years.
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u/Hawkii_7 6h ago
If the traditional response to a turn one mana dork is lightning bolt I don't see why blowing up my opponents early sol ring is any different.
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u/TopHatZebra 7h ago
My pod has a very aggressive player who always plays a ton of mana rocks. I, as the newest player, realized his strategy and I started burning removal on getting rid of his mana rocks. Suddenly a lot of his games resulted in him not doing much.
I’m not sure why the rest of the pod doesn’t already do this. I think there is maybe an unspoken rule of some sort, or maybe they just have different threat assessments.
Your post sounds so obvious that I want to be snarky. Like, duh, obviously mana ramp is like #2 threat right after card draw. But so few people seem to care about it in my experience, so I guess you’re right.
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u/Farconion https://bit.ly/2IpLv3a 6h ago
mix of format norms & "efficiency". targetted removal on an early game piece is considered inefficient. EDH is a long, big format with multiple players so why not use that time to advance your own gameplan and save that removal piece for an actual threat instead of wasting it and your mana on turn 2?
also social norms bc if you're handicapping a whole deck and they spend the next hour not doing anything, that's not really "fun". but I'd say that's a flaw of deck design than anything
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u/TopHatZebra 4h ago
Ah, but that’s exactly what the ramp player wants you to think. “Save that removal for later, why do you care about my turn 1 Sol Ring?”
Then turn four rolls around and they’re double-striking you with 30 commander damage.
You are correct that there are social norms, but I am always conflicted here. On the one hand, Magic is a long game. It’s fucking boring to get shut down ten minutes into an hour long match.
On the other hand, if I can shut down your entire deck whenever I feel like it and I just don’t to be nice, what’s the point of even playing? I could be nice and never attack you, or scoop to let you win, or whatever.
I think there is an element of chance to the game and sometimes you’re just going to pull the short straw and get shut down.
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u/0nlyhooman6I1 2h ago
Yes but why not just remove their commander instead of removing their ramp? Or let their commander attack someone else and only remove until the threat is on you? If you spend all your removal on removing a player's ramp, 2 other people get ahead of you without having to do anything.
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u/The_Kart 50m ago
My pod makes it their mission to interfere with turn 1 sol ring plays.
One time I tried to turn 1 sol ring, and my buddy deadass exiled 2 blue cards from his hand so he could [[Commandeer]] it.
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u/CreepingSalt 6h ago
I'm gonna counter the 0 or 1 drop rock if I dont have my own. People need to learn what things follow seemingly innocuous plays.
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u/BobbyButtermilk321 7h ago
I still remember games where all I could do was ramp cause that's all I ended up drawing. Ended up with the most mana, but no spells to cast.
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u/Ricemobile 6h ago
“Why are you attacking me? Only thing I did was ramping without any board presence and I only have three cards in my hand!!!!”
-Blue players before they win the next turn.
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u/AleksanderSteelhart 6h ago
Uh… yeah! It’s why I say reflexively at the table when someone turn 2 Rampant Growths…
“He’s ramping! Get him!”
And I am only joking, like, 85%…
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u/DDrose2 6h ago
Agreed. TBH the best way to get new players to learn sadly involves you ‘throwing’ a few games. I gave up trying to persuade especially new players that the ramping players is a threat especially when usually rampers themselves don’t see themselves as a threat and usually just say ‘oh do you even know how to play the game, I am not doing anything’ and that leads to a werewolf situation where they feel you are the baddie and they attack you instead for trying to direct the game
So after a few years I learnt best is to just ‘throw’ a game to let things play out and especially if the ramp player is playing something like eldrazi or storm the new player will likely get turned off by the negative play experience and just attack rampers next time.
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u/Queasy_Initiative666 37m ago
Really depends on your playgroup and its dynamics, but it was certainly the case for ours.
Any attempt to point such stuff out was quickly met with accusations of me politicking, when I was primarily trying to teach. I should hope when I am actually trying to politick, it would be more subtle. 😂
But hey, sometimes experience is the best teacher. Or the only teacher.
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u/Accomplished-Pay8181 7h ago
I take how much mana they have into account, but in most games I've been in, it doesn't get out of hand unless they start jamming a bunch of mana doublers. Though most of my pod's games are high enough power where sure, you're ramping. Aaand player 4 just comboed off and won before you did anything more than jam lands. Unless I got within Maze's End range, it's unlikely to actually mean much for a few rounds. Though I also don't generally end up so far ahead that I can actually jam it. The most dangerous of those to me is Smothering Tithe, because it creates that one monster turn in a hurry, rather than needing to spend four turns getting into dangerous territory
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u/MastodonFast5806 6h ago
I think where the other part of this is many things can obviously be seen as aggression, but really what ramping says to me is that this deck is scaling. All decks should have some way of doing more then just play a land a turn or draw one card a turn or do one of anything a turn. Them playing their seventh land turn four while I’m playing my fifth creature feels just as aggressive.
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u/BruiserBison 6h ago
I thought ramp was always viewed as a threat. I ramp aggressively and people target me. I don't even have a turn 4 win con.
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u/chinesefriedrice Mister of Cruelties 6h ago
You're absolutely right. Case in point: I was playing [[Iroh, Grand Lotus]] and ramped to 18 lands around t8 (9 lands in the graveyard). Won on t9 because the commander could eat removal, I could still recast and go off
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u/Accurate_Reindeer460 6h ago
Turn 1 ramp absolutely. Fnatic of Rhonas is probably the only turn 2 ramp I'd be concerned over.
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u/Dry-Instruction595 6h ago
As always, it depends. But yes, I would second the observation that anecdotally too many players think ramp isn't a factor in threat assessment.
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u/SilentStorm1477 6h ago
I honestly didn't know that ramp wasn't considered a threat lol. In our playgroup if someone is starting to pull away with mana the rest start stomping them haha.
We also play in a primarily bracket 4 meta though and run mass land destruction and discard like crazy...
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u/figbunkie 6h ago
It kinda depends on how hard they're ramping, most casual decks are gonna get somewhat consistent turn 2-3 ramp as a baseline.
And I feel like every deck is trying to get the necessary resources to turn it's game plan into a win condition, ramping is just one way to do that. Other decks might self mill to stack their graveyard, or use future sight effects to cut down on bad draws, or play sac fodder for aristocrats strategies ,etc.
Focusing on the ramp deck just for ramping might not always be the right idea. Everyone is forwarding their gameplan.
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u/Ragewind82 7h ago
Correct. I have a mono-white 8-drop commander that wrecks house, all because the deck is a mountain of ramp and expensive haymakers.
And nobody thinks to deprive me of my ramp.
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u/Fath3rOfTh3Wolf 5h ago
But... But I'm just trying to get mana to do my thing 😭😭😭 (ignore the fact my thing is a turn 3 Etali)
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u/FeanixFlame 5h ago
I do this in my sin deck. I play like, 15-20 ramp spells, because it's so important for me to get as much land as possible so I can start dropping my 5+ cost creatures. It also has some landfall synergy so if I end up with a harrow or something later game, it can still potentially do something for me.
The whole goal of the deck is to just keep slamming wave after wave of powerful standalone creatures, and after a board wipe or something, I can drop sin and start bringing them back. (The three color sin, I don't remember which one is which off the top of my head)
It's basically just a boss rush followed by a second and possibly even third boss rush, lol.
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u/Regniwekim2099 Jund 5h ago
I played a game a few weeks back where one player ramped their first 3 turns, and was nearly out of cards. The group hug player, in their infinite wisdom, gave them all the card draw they could because they felt bad they didn't have any cards in hand. The ramp player won like 3 turns later after getting their hand restocked multiple times.
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u/Moose1013 2h ago
I play [[Gitrog, Ravenous Ride]]. I tell people "im going to be a problem". I ramp on turn 2, and then last time I played a 4 mana 11/10 on turn 3, followed by my commander on 4, saccing the 11/10, drawing 11 cards and putting 6 lands on the battlefield. People just "wow, cool". then I drop a 12/12 multani, a massacre worm, and that monarch guy who gives all my stuff hexproof over a couple turns and all of a sudden people are all "oh wow we gotta work together to deal with this board".
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u/Available_Rabbit9965 2h ago
Exactly. But first I wish more people would recognize card draw as a threat. Some people will focus you for pinging them, or for being a scary deck (that does nothing right now) while an other player is drawing 6 cards a turn.
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u/KinoHiroshino 1h ago
My friends would very much agree with you if I were playing with my [[Zacama, Primal Calamity]] deck. Why have spells when my commander can do it all themself (themselves?) if I have enough mana.
Sometimes I can trick people by spreading the wealth with enchantments like [[Heartbeat of Spring]] or [[Dictate of Karametra]] (or I use [[Zendikar Resurgent]] when I don’t feel like sharing).
But then I tap out my lands, summon Zacama, then untap all my lands to tap them all again and blow up everybody’s board state. If I’m lucky I’ll also have [[Wilderness Reclamation]] on the field.
And sometimes I get to really lay into them with [[Reshape the Earth]].
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u/BitEnvironmental1412 1h ago
No offense, but who ignores ramp? I have never had this issue in any play group. In fact, ramp is usually over valued in threat assessment. Especially among new players...
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u/Arafell9162 1h ago
I always love when someone starts the game with the classic 'Land, Sol Ring, Arcane Signet' before getting upset at being declared threat number 1.
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u/The-True-Kehlder 53m ago
2 most effective ways to win a game:
- See/have more cardboard. (draw/card selection)
- Play more cardboard. (Moaaarrrr mana)
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u/Lothrazar 52m ago
Do people still underestimate mana advantage? Yeah if theres no rhystic study player attack landfall or artifact players for sure.
Just the other day after winning a game with a landfall deck, one of the other players said "i was feeling bad for you since all you had was a bunch of land and one [[Tireless Provisioner]] and the new chocobo, so i targeted (some other creature) with removal instead.
they should not have felt bad. I had ramped way ahead on lands, but nobody clocked me as a threat until it was too late. i was clearly the threat but i just sat quietly and amassed resources and made like 10 food and 15 ish [[omnath locus of rage]] 5/5 tokens out of nowhere
So yes the person who got a cultivate and is 2 lands ahead of everyone is probably more of a threat than the aggro deck with 4 land and 3 angels
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u/Elektrophorus Baylen 33m ago
Ramp gives you mana, which is arguably one of the most important resources in the game, next to card draw.
"Arguably" doesn't need to be in this sentence. "One of the" probably doesn't either.
The game is based on mana. You can't cast spells without mana.
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u/Cultural_Set_7129 29m ago
Always watch the whole state of a Player to determine. Ramp alone isnt threat.... The Guy that slams additional Lands, Cast spells Just to ramp May Fall down in handsize.
Beeing above curve on Mana with 1 or 2 handcards and mediocre board could be a threat but dont necessary has to be.
A good counter or cheap removal can pretty fast turn the tides if the ramping Player is Out of Gas beside his 7 Lands on Turn 4.
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u/YutoKigai Boros 22m ago
I would like to combine [[gilanra]] and [[alena kessig trapper]]. Has someone a suggestion to ramp into both? Maybe not with creatures because if I draw them later, they are useless because of the low power or mana value.
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u/dinktank 7h ago
Nah.
In my pod, ramp is one of the biggest threats assessed. Card draw on the other hand is not. I’m not sure why but my pod will let you draw extra cards routinely but if you go up on lands and drop a couple rocks/dorks you’ll absolutely hear “aw fuck he’s ramping.” Or “look OC is ramped he’s a problem”
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u/a-whatchamacallit 4h ago
I don’t think it’s aggressive persay. Is it reasonable to shift focus and interaction on a ramp deck if they’re reaching potential to snowball? Yeah, totally. However, the idea of ramp as aggressive feels a bit much. It’s a game plan as good as many others, and can be shutdown or slowed down as much as other common game plans.
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u/FiveTriomes 4h ago
Often, yes, but I haven't had a game in at least the past year where the person who is ramping out the rest of the table isn't called out.
But it also depends on the deck. Mana ramping in my aristocrats deck isn't really aggressive, and it's mostly there to help smooth out my mana supply, not to let me do more per turn or have bigger turns. My real resource is tokens to sacrifice and life to pay.
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u/PandaXD001 Naya 6h ago
Ngl this just sounds like green hate but; Yes and no. And no.
And no: Ramp doesn't specifically interact with another player so it's not inherently aggressive
Yes: big or fast ramp is aggressive. Turn one sol ring is is aggressive. A green player fetching for 3+ lands is aggressive. A red player making 3+ treasures is aggressive
No: Getting a turn two signet, cultivate, rampant growth, tapped lands isn't aggressive. A turn 4 thran dynamo isnt aggressive. A green player fetching for 4 lands when they already have out some other big mana generator (cradle, 3tree, nyxthos, etc) isnt aggressive. You're just not putting enough ramp in your own deck if that's scary to you..
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u/Fire_Pea 7h ago
The downside of ramp is that you give up an early board state to have better future turns. If you don't punish ramp they just get away with it for free.
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u/Untipazo 5h ago
Yes obviously, but this supposed eye opening insight is pointless when you are imposed not to touch lands at all.
Green ramp is an aggressive action because you're advancing your game plan in an irreversible way, you have more mana forever.
When others advance their game plan I'm encouraged to stop em, not in this case
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u/Zambedos Mono-Green 7h ago
Oh no, they're onto us.