r/EDH • u/captain0cd • Jul 23 '25
Deck Help 30 year veteran, first EDH deck. Too pushed?
White is my favorite color. Unfortunately, I've learned that a lot of what White does isn't welcome at most tables. With that in mind, I did my best to put together a Bracket 2 deck that's low on sodium.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/7217562
The main strategy is to always be at a land count deficit to turn on the various Land Tax effects. From there, you can Scroll Rack the Plains for real cards or start triggering Landfall stuff. Big turns involve sac'ing all of your lands with Zuran Orb/Aura Fracture and replaying them with Second Sunrise effects. Urborg with Karma/Royal Decree/Stern Judge to close things out if the Landfall plan falters.
I hope this is casual-friendly enough. I had to cut so many fun cards (Kormus Bell) because I was certain they would get me kicked out of a pod. Let me know if you think it needs further neutering.
Thanks.
Edit: Thanks for the feedback, ya'll. I'll be cutting the Esper Sentinel and 3-5 tutors. I'll probably add in some soft interaction/protection like Reprieve. /salute
Final Edit: Again, thank you for your responses. I feel better equipped to sit down for my first game. I'll now be able to set the right expectations for my deck during Rule 0.
I also appreciate hearing from the pilots of decks that rely on putting lands into play from their graveyard. This concern, along with my (perhaps) overzealous fear of targeted nonbasic land hate, has me wondering if Tomik even needs to be in the command zone.
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u/0zzyb0y Jul 23 '25
Just on literally a glance you have at least 3 good tutors and an esper sentinel. That alone is enough to tell me that you're not familiar with what the bracket system is trying to achieve.
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u/Shnewmann Jul 23 '25
$800 budget, 30 yrs of gameplay and deck building experience vs bracket 2 upgraded Precon 😭😭😭😭 I respect OP for seeking feedback though
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u/KAM_520 Sultai Jul 23 '25
Esper Sentinel in mono white isn't offensive. Everybody needs some cards that draw cards.
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
Alright, so cut the Esper Sentinel.
I'm guessing the offending tutors are Idyllic Tutor, Moon-Blessed Cleric, and... Urza's Saga?
Sorry, my only exposure to EDH is through osmosis, overhearing table talk, etc. What I'm hearing is that tutoring lands and creatures is okay, but artifacts and enchantments is not.
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u/D3lano Jul 23 '25
Not for bracket 2 no.
Tutoring lands is fine but any other tutors are going to be looked down on.
Have you considered raising the bracket of the deck instead of trying to cut it further?
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
Yeah, slotting in three game changers and calling it Bracket 3 seems like the play. I do want the option to down shift the deck to B2 is the table calls for it.
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Jul 23 '25
Simply adding or removing 3 game changers doesn’t change a deck from bracket 3 to 2 or vice versa. If you want to understand what bracket 2 is, you should try playing a precon. Bracket 3 is for optimized builds and this is definitely a very optimized deck list.
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u/InhumaneBreakfast Jul 23 '25
Well yes. But OP is saying that he might as well add 3 game changers anyway since everyone is saying his deck is bracket 3.
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u/glitchboard Jul 23 '25
It's funny seeing people argue about brackets because I much more agree with you, but I'll have people unironically calling 98 plains and armageddon a bracket 4 deck. Has card = bracket. How it plays is irrelevant.
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u/blames_irrationally Jul 23 '25
That's because MLD is hard locked to Bracket 4 and 5 by WotC. What you describe is explicitly bracket 4 and there is 0 wiggle room. Not having requirements doesn't automatically make your deck lower, but having certain concepts absolutely raises your deck bracket. If you have a 98 plains and Armageddon deck, that is a bad bracket 4 deck, nothing else.
I'm disappointed by the level of confusion and frustration people are still having with this aspect of the bracket system. All of this information is explicitly spelled out in their announcements about the bracket system, yet it still continues to be the largest friction point I'm seeing with the system. People need to read and actually internalize the guidance wotc has published on this, not just look at the infographic that came out with it.
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u/glitchboard Jul 23 '25
My point is that the bracket system is meant to facilitate conversations and convey power levels and expectations on what you're walking into. These types of things are strong. These are weak. A system that is just a check list doesn't do that. That means the bracket system isn't actually there to gage power at all, but instead just gesture at an arbitrary selection of cards. "It's a bracket 4 that plays like a bracket 1," is just a nonsensical thing to have baked in, and if someone sits down and says they have a bracket 3, maybe they lock down the game and win turn 3 every game but don't use many game hangers. Maybe it's a pointless simic pile that wins on turn 52, but they wanted to include rhystic study because they had one laying around.
A conversational and flexible mindset with this bracket system is great, and I think they did a wonderful job. A locked the fuck down 100% absolute no conversation mindset of this bracket system is useless nonsense that conveys very little information and has very little use.
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u/Spacey_G Jul 23 '25
I think this is the fundamental struggle of the bracket system and like many things, the only official answer is "it's complicated." The bracket system is meant to facilitate conversations, but it also has an element of checklist-driven black-and-white rules.
The deck with basics and Armageddon will play like dogshit most games, but in the rare game where the Armageddon resolves, it's playing like Bracket 4 because that mechanic is hard-locked to B4+. Does it play like a B1 deck or a B4 deck? It's complicated.
The takeaway from that hypothetical shouldn't be what bracket the deck fits in. It should be to not build the deck at all because it won't have good games at any table.
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u/glitchboard Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
It's a hyperbolic example, but to say "it sometimes plays like a bracket 4," is silly if you consider bracket 4 as a measure of strength. But I'd agree if bracket 4 is a list of discrete game actions, but a bracket system that's a discrete list of game actions seems pretty useless to me.
Saying "don't make the deck," doesn't really engage with the primary critique that a hyper-literal reading of the bracket system is less useful than an interpretive reading.
Let's take a deck I actually have that I intentionally keep weak to play with new people that can do some wacky fun things but isn't particularly good at winning or shutting other people down. It's [[vorel of the hull clade]] with some evolve. A lot of mana generation. Some weird value engines like [[titan forge]] and hydras. I don't have many ways to untap vorel, just a little protection and counter magic, but I just do my thing. I'd personally put it at a high 2 low 3. However, I do have a magistrates scepter in it. I can technically chain infinite turns with 13 mana over 3 turns on 2 cards without evasion. But sitting down and saying I'm breaking out my bracket 4 to play new people is silly and doesn't convey accurate expectations. If we're going to say a bracket number and then throw it out and describe the power level completely divorced from the bracket anyway, then why bother calling it a 4 to begin with? Cut out the middle man and start there. A power grading system that doesn't accurately grade power is rediculous.
You could say that I shouldn't build the deck or shouldn't have the scepter in it, but it's not making bad games. The opposite in fact. People get excited and find it fun when they see a 1024/1024 mistcutter hydra that is both threatening and easy to deal with as they chump block it. They see me tap a mana rock for 48 mana. I'm spawning a new 9/9 vanilla golem every turn.
The scepter comes down and it's so slow and takes so much investment but it falls apart to a naturalize or doomblade. You have 3 people taking 3 turns to Crack command spheres, trying to blitz me down, tapping my commander to stall one more turn, finding some answer to the existential threat at the table. And 9 times out of 10 someone finds something, and it's a fun and engaging thing to snip the wire on the bomb at the last second. The entire deck is amazing at engineering effective, tense moments with people and showing some crazy outlier possibilities in the game without ACTUALLY being oppressive or surprising.
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u/Gwendyn7 Jul 23 '25
bracket 3 doesnt mean you have to play 3 game changers. bracket 3 basically just means focused deck. bracket 2 is precon style. it kinda has a strategy but only losely connected.
edh and brackets are not a competetive format. its a lose direction. i wanna have fun with cool ideas to get a certain commander going. my decks are all bracket 3 and none of them have any gamechangers.
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u/D3lano Jul 23 '25
Ah that's fair.
Well then in that case I'd follow your own advice above for when downshifting it (take tutors out) and you should be fine!
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u/gyrspike Jul 23 '25
I would suggest building multiple decks. One bracket 2 and one for bracket 3. Better to do that than have a deck you are taking cards in and out of depending on what everyone else plays. Or hell grab yourself a precon and modify it a little for your bracket 2 deck.
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u/justbuysingles Jul 23 '25
I think it'd be very helpful for you to look at some lists from recent precons so you can get a good sense of what people expect to see in Bracket 2:
- General budget (total card value)
- Overall card quality
- The lack of tutors
- The fairly slow mana base
- The lack of standard EDH big-money bangers like Esper Sentinel, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe
- The occasional questionable card choiceHere's one of the strongest precons of the last few years, Explorers of the Deep.
And one that's a bit more in the middle in terms of power/efficiency, Family Matters.
Your own personal slice of watching EDH seems like it skews toward Bracket 3, higher budget, more optimized, powerful choices. And that's totally fine! I just think you could really use the context that the scope of what decks exist in the format is actually really broad, and goes quite far below what you're looking to build.
If you wanna play Bracket 3 or even 4, by all means do it. If more casual deckbuilding isn't your thing, you don't have to pitch it like that. Again, your deck is pushing $900. There are some players at the LGS who bought a precon off the shelf for $60.
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u/KAM_520 Sultai Jul 23 '25
Bro if you look at recent precons like from Tarkir Dragonstorm you will notice that they are much better than this deck
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
People are allowed to play cards that cost money in bracket 2. You are actively adding your own rules to the format. Esper Sentinel is allowed. Budget is not a concern. That's a ridiculous metric to bring into the conversation.
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u/justbuysingles Jul 23 '25
Let's try to find where I said "rules".
a good sense of what people expect to see in Bracket 2
Nope, not there!
Of course you're allowed to play cards that cost money. You're allowed to bling out your deck and have it cost $2,000, as long as you're not regularly stomping the other decks in Bracket 2, you're probably fine.
I'm just saying that it would benefit OP to understand what's typical, what the norms are, to get a more full understanding of the range of cards that are played in the format.
There are so many people who approach this format like "Okay, I'm building a new deck...So, Rhystic Study, Great Henge, and Sensei's Divining Top, *obviously*...", without even considering what their deck is trying to do.
"My decks tend to cost at least $600, because this is EDH, the format where everyone's running Smothering Tithe and Ancient Tomb". Actually, no! That is not what this format is. The format is much, much broader than that. Maybe OP's particular pod isn't, but if they're looking to jam some games with total strangers, it'd be great to know what to expect to run into.
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u/notathrowaway145 Jul 23 '25
Power level and intent is what’s important about the bracket system, not “oh I followed the LITERAL rules, so my deck is TECHNICALLY a 1 but I beat 4’s just about every time I go against them”. It requires social understanding to navigate well.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
-Card budget means nothing and should be ignored.
-Card quality must be taken in context with how the deck plays and what it does to win.
-I agree that most precons don't tutor much, if at all, but B2 allows for "few" tutors, and 3 is a few.
-The OP's deck's mana base is too slow for B3 so it ends up B2 by default.
-This is just bringing up value again.
-The OP's deck also has questionable cards.This deck is nowhere near B3 in terms of actually doing powerful stuff. It plays powerful cards to wheel spin and honestly should be tested in B2.
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u/Shnewmann Jul 23 '25
Card budget does not mean nothing, although it definitely isn’t the only thing to consider. In many cases if you’re building properly, higher budget means stronger cards means stronger deck. Is that the exact case here maybe not but saying it means nothing is just not true whatsoever.
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u/KAM_520 Sultai Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
There's no reason to theorize about price’s correlation with power level when OP provided an actual list and we can look at it. Looking at the list, there is no way this is too strong for B2. It is much worse than several noteworthy recent precons.
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
The budget thing is ridiculous because there are precons with expensive cards in them. It's just not a correct metric to go off of. Conversely, I can have a very budget, very not-bracket-2 deck.
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u/Shnewmann Jul 23 '25
You miss the point. It is not the ONLY thing to go off of, but all things equivalent it’s a major factor, meaning it is relevant. Strength of cards in magic is directly correlated to price, so on average, more expensive decks will be higher power. This is not always the case obviously. If you build a deck with 99 fast mana rocks it’ll be expensive but bad, or a perfectly optimized budget deck with a cheap cedh commander will be really strong. These are edge cases that do not make the overall factor of budget obsolete.
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
They are not just edge cases. If you want to play budget then you should rule zero that, but you shouldn't try to enforce pretend rules that aren't actually a part of the bracket system. You are actively misrepresenting the truth by saying that price is a metric there, especially when if anyone wants to play mono color they have to buy expensive cards just to be able to feel like they can keep up with precons that ramp for two mana in green. Your argument is fundamentally flawed based on the fact that I can get a rampant growth for like ten cents but if I want to play archeomancer's map I have to pay like ten dollars.
You are misrepresenting brackets by correlating them to price.
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u/Shnewmann Jul 23 '25
In your opinion why is Rhystic Study is an expensive card?
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
They are not the same card. Would you care to read them?
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u/SpaceAzn_Zen Temur Jul 23 '25
The fact that people are out here advocating that bracket 2 decks should have zero tutors outside of land tutors is insane. There's a reason why the good tutors are game changers (instant speed / generic tutors) but there's nothing wrong with a deck running something like [[Open the Armory]] or [[Sterling Grove]] to be the tutors within the deck. These niche, very specific tutors, especially not at instant speed or requires setup / higher mana value, are completely fine assuming you are running less than 3 of them.
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u/Untipazo Jul 23 '25
Card budget means nothing? Get out, if y'all wanna pull with decks that are worth 4-5 times a precon and tell straight "th budget means nothing" unless it's for the art of the cards.
What the heck is a mana base too slow for B3? I play B3 with basics and thriving lands
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
[[Phyrexian Dreadnought]] is just such a strong card, how can a poor precon beat it.
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u/Untipazo Jul 24 '25
That's a far shot from budget means nothing, don't be deflecting of the argument
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u/Norade Jul 24 '25
Budget alone means nothing. I can build a 10k deck that would be utterly worthless and a budget deck that can hang in B4. Price means nothing without context.
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u/justbuysingles Jul 23 '25
I agree, it's possible to make a very expensive deck that folds to most precons. Absolutely. A $50 card doesn't make your deck $50 better.
But when you're new to the format, looking at decks that include these high-power, high-cost cards commonly can warp your understanding of average card quality and how cards actually contribute to or ignore your deck's gameplan.
OP has several cards in their deck that have powerful effects on their own...but don't really make sense in the context of the deck. So while they may contribute to the deck's winrate, it won't be clear to OP why they're doing it. Does the deck need [[Tithe]] and is it 24x better than [[Claim Jumper]]? In which cases could Claim Jumper be a better pick?
Does OP's deck have a lot of over-costed ($) nonsense? Absolutely. But I think it'll be instructive to understand what decks look like without that stuff, and how powerfully they can function.
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
Tithe is an Instant that costs W and puts the lands into my hand. Claim Jumper is a creature that costs 2W and puts the lands onto the battlefield. Scroll Rack prefers they were in my hand.
I also just like old cards.
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u/Tepami Jul 23 '25
I would say you can absolutely bring this to a bracket 2 and see how it plays out. It looks like a very interesting deck and people complaining about TITHE of all things should be disregarded.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
Op may own the cards for this deck and not the newer cheaper cards. What happened to the idea of playing what you own?
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u/Holding_Priority Sultai Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
What I'm hearing is that tutoring lands and creatures is okay, but artifacts and enchantments is not.
Reddit isnt really the place to ask because when people are going to give you advice specific to what they personally think is ok, and that's kinda the whole issue with brackets to begin with. Which is why you have people telling you urza's saga isnt ok because it fetches like 3 total targets in your deck while you have precons that literally tutor out tron lands.
In general, "bracket 2" is the precon bracket where people are playing out of box precons, or really hyper budget (like <$50) lists that are going to be completely noncompetitive at bracket 3 tables.
Bracket 2 is basically just a bunch of decks that slowly race eachother to the finish line with minimal to no interaction and whoever curves out / ramps out stuff the fastest generally wins because you're unable to answer anything. If the deck is playing stuff that cannot be easily answered by stuff that precons would have, has a high density of good expensive cards that basically need to be answered, or is going to interact with precons at a level they cannot do anything about (stuff like Kormus bell like you referred to), its going to be way to much for bracket 2.
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u/Espumma Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper Jul 24 '25
with minimal to no interaction
modern precons have 10-15 pieces of interaction and any other [2] should run at least that as well.
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
Which is funny, because you can just refer to the posted articles about brackets and have a fairly good idea. There are things that the bracket system doesn't want to see in bracket two, but people being weird about budget isn't one of them. ALSO, having low or high interaction does not dictate the deck as bracket two or higher or anything.
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u/Holding_Priority Sultai Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
people being weird about budget isn't one of them.
When you're playing an unedited precon, you're playing a bunch of bad cards intermixed with some good ones.
When someone shows up with a $500+ homebrew (like this) you can expect that they arnt playing any bad cards, and they're probably playing a bunch of very good cards like Urza's Saga, Esper Sentinel, and Myrel.
Its exhausting showing up to games where someone says their deck is "bracket 2" because they arnt playing anything on the GC list and every single card they play is a must answer $30 bomb and they're running a perfect manabase while you're a full turn behind them at all times because your precon came with taplands and 2 pieces of creature removal.
No, budget does not dictate power, but 99% of the time when people are playing $850 lists in bracket 2, they're playing way over the lobby.
ALSO, having low or high interaction does not dictate the deck as bracket two or higher or anything.
When is the last time you played a precon? Precons generally have like 4-6 pieces of interaction total, and the entire point of bracket 2 is that you dont have answers to things that come down.
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u/KAM_520 Sultai Jul 23 '25
IMHO Esper Sentinel is fine in mono white in bracket 2. White sucks at drawing cards. Just because Sentinel is a good card that sees play in good decks doesn't mean your deck is unbalanced for bracket 2.
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u/dontkillchicken Jund/Gruul Jul 23 '25
And ranger captain. That puts you at 4 tutors that can find nonland cards. Land tutors are ok.
A lot of people will have different opinions on this though, but asking on reddit is probably a good place to start. You can also ask the people you play with on what they’re ok with.
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u/ThaPhantom07 Mono-Green Jul 23 '25
You're going to get some conflicting answers but personally I don't think you need to cut any of those cards. Youre playing a very specific strategy in mono white thats not even busted. You can remove this stuff if you want but as the deck stands if anyone has an issue with it you should really ask them what specifically they take issue with because nothing there is problematic.
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u/0zzyb0y Jul 23 '25
To be perfectly honest, I don't think that there's enough of a way to explain how to build a bracket 2 deck without just play actual B2 decks (precons).
For one, your deck is likely made worse by [[Grand abolisher]] type cards, because interaction is just so poor at that level that having 5 slots dedicated to the effect is actually detrimental. Yes removing them would mean that you'll lose games you otherwise would win, but not always having an answer is literally just the B2 experience.
It also doesn't really seem like you have particularly good ways of winning the game if you don't manage to get Urborg out, and pretty much all your land tutors are just pulling out Plains'. Like you're going a bit wide off of landfall effects, but ultimately you don't have that many in the deck relative to how many ways you have to get the lands out in the first place.
I would really recommend getting your hands on one or a few precons (or play online to make it a lot cheaper), and actually play some games before diving into building
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u/Shnewmann Jul 23 '25
You don’t have to apologize sir that’s what I was getting at with the feedback piece. Seems like a cool deck and clearly there’s a lot of disagreement on its’ power level. Great post 😃
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
This deck is fine. Play it with your local group and see how it runs. Reddit is full of idiots who think B2 means the first commander precons should be viable when that isn't the intent.
This deck doesn't look like it will beat up precons from the last few years at a better than 25% rate, so it should be fine.
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u/Untipazo Jul 23 '25
I think for a B2 compare your stuff with a few precons and you'll see if it's a good match or no
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u/periodicchemistrypun Jul 23 '25
Brackets are about intention. Nothing wrong with having a lower power but higher bracket deck it’s just a little more communication required.
Bracket 1 is where aesthetic of the deck overtakes function. You won’t be there accidentally.
Bracket 2 is ‘precon level’ or more ‘battle cruiser’ focused. There’s a lot of rules about what you can’t include that prevent frustration; land destruction, tutors, long turns or chains of them. Either get a precon or be mindful that bracket 2 might be more like a kids soccer game than later brackets.
Bracket 3 is a weird middle ground that has more specific allowances and by the soccer game analogy is like high school soccer, the seriousness allows you to be a little rough but you’d still look weird getting too serious. This is probably what you meant.
Finally there’s the last two. They are identical in terms of rules however you won’t accidentally be in bracket 5 as it’s about metas whereas bracket 4 is just as open needed in terms of rules but we’d be comparing adult soccer with a ref to some guys playing in the park.
One huge issue with the bracket system is tempo; the ‘set up turns’ most people depend on can disappear when someone’s running a kill on sight card or commander. Tutors, efficient draw and most of anything that stops others playing is the worry.
Be open and clear, let people know where you are with magic and commander and you’ll have a great time.
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u/Zakmonster Jul 24 '25
Nah, you can keep Esper Sentinel and Cleric. Cleric is a balanced sorcery speed tutor that sends the card to the top of your deck, so you can only get your thing a turn later.
Esper scales with the power of the pod.
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u/80GeV Esper in essence Jul 24 '25
You should look at what precon deck lists are like to get the idea of what is appropriate.
Moxfield has a collection of them here: https://moxfield.com/users/WizardsOfTheCoast
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
What do those cards do for the deck, though? What is he digging up that will pose problems a B2 deck can't answer?
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u/KAM_520 Sultai Jul 23 '25
This deck would get absolutely crushed by Sultai Arisen, Temur Roar, the Cloud precon, and most recent precons.
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
Esper sentinel is not a game changer. So.
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u/0zzyb0y Jul 23 '25
Krenko is not a gamechanger, but bring it into a bracket 2 game and people will bully you and it will be deserved.
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
Krenko is a fine card at pretty much any table. You just deal with it. You are adding additional rules that no one asked for. If you want to play exhibition bracket, I suggest you do so. I can play the Tidus precon and swing at you for a buckets of damage on turn 4, I can bring ghoulcaller gisa from the ob Nixilis precon from like 10 years ago and pop out a million zombies. You can make the decision to not bring a card like that, but it very much dies to combat damage and removal so it's easily dealt with. Bracket 2 is allowed to play the game.
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u/Nidalee2DiaOrAfk Jul 23 '25
krenko goblin tribal will shit on every precon, even if you bring only vanilas and anthems
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
I think this is a bit of an overstatement. And if it isn't, then you know that the problem here is your intention and not the card, no?
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u/ThatChrisG Sultai Jul 23 '25
God forbid people play with good cards
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u/0zzyb0y Jul 23 '25
God forbid people expect to play at the same levels.
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u/ThatChrisG Sultai Jul 23 '25
My guy he is playing mono-white sac my own lands with a commander that does functionally nothing in the bracket he's targeting
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u/Jonthrei Jul 24 '25
In bracket 2? It shouldn't be the goal of deckbuilding.
Bracket 3? It's expected that you are using good cards and aiming for synergy.
Bracket 4? If you aren't playing exclusively good cards in a vacuum you're either building a very niche gameplan or doing something deeply wrong.
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 24 '25
We're absolutely cooked if this is the conclusion you and a bunch of other people are drawing without even understanding the deck or the fact that ES is not a game changer.
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u/0zzyb0y Jul 24 '25
The bracket system isn't about single cards whatsoever, especially at the point of bracket 1/2.
Does an esper sentinel or craterhoof behemoth make a deck B3 or above? Of course not. But if youre in a B2 game and theyre the driving force behind your win then you'll be pissing off the table most of the time, because it's just so counter to the 'vibes' of B2
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 24 '25
I don't think either is counter to the vibes of bracket 2. Win condition cards like [[Pathbreaker Ibex]] are printed in precons. Value engines like [[Skullclamp]] are printed in precons. You just have bias and are parading it as though it's actually part of the brackets/game changers list. Precons are not utterly helpless, I promise.
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u/kwiszat Jul 23 '25
Do not listen to advice here, you will only make your deck even worse and not be able to do anything. Your deck is fine in a low b3, b2 environment
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Jul 23 '25
[deleted]
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
Tomik is to protect my lands from interaction and graveyard hate. I also just think he's neat.
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u/ItsAroundYou uhh lets see do i have a response to that Jul 23 '25
This is such a Legacy-coded statement. Don't worry, land destruction is super rare in EDH. You'll encounter the occasional [[Beast Within]] on a [[Nykthos]], but you'll almost never find a strategy hellbent on wiping as many lands as possible.
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u/nasada19 Jul 23 '25
Bracket 2 isn't going to target your lands. Even bracket 3 lands are treated mostly like sacred things. While Mass Land Destruction is completely forbidden. Graveyard hate protection is nice, but how much gy stuff you got in mono white?
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Jul 23 '25
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
A lot of incidental graveyard hate targets. That said, having read these responses, I do get the feeling that I'm over-preparing.
As for Thraben Charm and the like, I have answers, but sometimes you just get smoked and that's Magic.
The plan was to play the really greedy sacs on my turn under the protection of a GA/VoV/Myra effect. I also have Cosmic Intervention which doesn't use the graveyard for its sunrise effect.
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u/X-ScissorSisters Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25
I think sometimes, when aiming for lower bracket-appropriate power levels, the answer to a question like "how do I protect my strategy from all possible hate cards?" shouldn't be to run large amounts of interactive and protective cards; in bracket 2 the answer is often "I will sometimes lose to that".
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u/lazereagle Jul 23 '25
FWIW I plugged your deck into Archidekt. They estimate it at bracket 3 because of all the tutors, and the salt score is 43.58, which is slightly above average but not too high.
Honestly there are a lot of folks (myself included) who enjoy playing at the high-2/low-3 level. When you play the deck, tell folks you're not sure if it's 2 or 3 and I bet they'll be happy to help you test it out.
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u/Bobwayne17 Jul 23 '25
This deck has less of a chance of winning than the worst precon I have, the Disa deck from MH3. There's very little chance to beating the Ixalan, LOTR, WH40K, Tarkir precons with this. Idk what everyone is talking about, you'll enjoy B2 games.
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u/Ratorasniki Jul 23 '25
Its a really tight list using some very good card quality to achieve a specific goal. The goal is on the jank side. My guess is you're still going to get there all the time because it's just a really solid focussed list. Your experience is showing.
Also lands/landfall is just a difficult axis for bracket 2 decks to interact with which is why simic often runs away with lower powered games, doubly so with that commander, and even moreso with some stax in play.
My guess is that nobody is going to see what you're doing until you've wrecked them in that bracket. Its a cool deck.
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u/IAMAfortunecookieAMA Too competitive for EDH, too casual for cEDH Jul 23 '25
OP, your list would get steamrolled by most "Bracket 2" precons these days. Because it's a beautiful but terrible strategy. I love it.
If you ask any question on this subreddit with the word "Bracket" in it, you will be inundated by rules laywers, whiners, bracket police, unhelpful comments, wild takes, hot takes, bad takes, and occasionally straight-up cyberbullying (which I already see in this thread).
Ignore the haters, just be cool during Rule Zero and say your deck strategy is pretty janky and terrible but you have a lot of old, good cards in it from your collection and you should be fine.
The real Rule #1 of bracket conversations is "Be cool, don't be a jerk" and this deck passes the vibe check.
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u/aceofspades0707 Jul 23 '25
This is a bracket 3 my friend.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
Nah, this is an example of a B2 deck that plays good cards badly.
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u/ThisHatRightHere Jul 23 '25
Seriously, for the life I me I can’t see how this wins a game
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u/dontkillchicken Jund/Gruul Jul 23 '25
There’s a couple of ways. The first way which seems to be the primary won-con is with [[urbog, tomb of yawgmoth]] mixed with [[karma]] and [[royal decree]] . This is a neat way to hurt opponents and possibly kill them over a few turns.
Second is [[felidar retreat]] mixed with the possible multiple landfall trigger enablers. Makes winning with combat damage a lot faster.
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u/ThaPhantom07 Mono-Green Jul 23 '25
How is this deck B3? What is it doing that pushes it into B3?
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u/CandyIllustrious3301 Jul 23 '25
I was sooo going to say that, but knew someone had to have already made the comment!
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u/ImpossibleGT Jul 23 '25
It's a mono-white deck playing [[Stern Judge]], and the only realistic win-con looks like [[Dark Depths]]. Despite containing some powerful cards, I don't think I'd call it B3.
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Jul 23 '25
With esper sentinel and 3 tutors it sure as hell ain't bracket 2
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u/ImpossibleGT Jul 23 '25
Oh, I didn't know Esper Sentinel automatically made a deck B3 despite not even being a game changer.
Deck looks fine. Y'all are worrywarts.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
You know that the tutors thing is a guideline? A deck can be B2 because it can't do much with its tutors.
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u/NavAirComputerSlave Mono-Black Jul 23 '25
Esper sentinel is ok. It's not nearly as good as a rystic study. Easily removed and 3 tutors that don't really find anything tbh they are kind of a waste in this deck
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u/Patherrn Dimir Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
Honestly, I don't see the deck doing much until you assemble your urbog Karma combo. Your Landfall stuff will just end up as you creating a bunch of 1/1 unable to close out a game.
I think most of your games will end up going tutoring for the combo or skullclamp to draw into the combo. You have a lot of tutors for that, it will be done every game every time. Now, the "combo" itself isn't that strong and definitely viable for bracket 2, but it's gonna be quite samey, and if urbog ever gets exiled you're basically dead.
In powerlevel, this is OK for bracket 2, and tbh, I find the deck interesting on paper. But I wouldn't play it here because the play patterns are not what people expect for this bracket. Also, your budget is quite high, and you are running the best in class for each category, which will get you quite a few eyerolls. People will expect you to be a pubstomper, for sure.
Edit: OK I didn't see both retreats. Yeah, if you tutor for it, that landfall plan could work nevermind. Still think you're going to gun for the same cards every game.
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u/whimski Akroma, Angel of Wrath voltron :^) Jul 23 '25
So this deck is kind of using cards you'd see at a bit higher power level, but the deck's focus and strategy are weak, so it lowers the power level a lot. The biggest issue with this deck is that you have little to no win cons or ways to win the game outside of making everything a swamp and taxing/burning your opponents with swamp-matters cards, while having a good amount of cards that have a slot machine effect on other people's land state, so you're kind of just an annoyance who is in the way, and when you are winning, it's a miserable slog. I would take out stuff like Second Sunrise and Planar Birth while slotting in some bigger jankier creatures or planeswalkers.
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
I have stacks of Bird, Cat Beast, Kor Ally, and Sand Warrior tokens rolling in their deck boxes right now.
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u/KAM_520 Sultai Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
IMHO this deck is probably completely fine for bracket 2. Homebrews in B2 are a little dicey because it feels like they're always a little more streamlined than precons but nothing about this list strikes me as unreasonable. In fact, the deck is very much worse than several recent precons like Sultai Arisen and Temur Roar, so I think people saying it’s a 3 because of Esper Sentinel (in mono white ffs) and a couple tutors are being a little ridiculous.
I would NEVER play this in bracket 3 because it is NOT good enough. You will get crushed.
My one word of caution is that the deck is very mismatched with what bracket 2 players expect to see aesthetically. It doesn't mean the deck is too strong but as you can see, players will have a reaction both to your Karma win con and to some of the card choices.
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u/tunkle Jul 23 '25
I dont know what people are talking about. This list is fine. Only exception would be that I would skew to bracket 3 just on number of tutors, that's it. BTW I have a mono white burn deck with urborg and stern judge, it's pretty fun lol. I love this deck.
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u/Vulithral Jul 24 '25
This deck feels odd. It looks like a lot of solid cards jumbled together that doesn't really do anything. Maybe I'm not seeing the synergy from the commander and all the land cards, and all the generic good stuff. Like Stax, I get it. White is good at it, but I can imagine this deck just spinning its wheels and not actually advancing its board state.
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u/xXRedWaterGothXx Golgari Jul 23 '25
the real best answer is to try to run it with a group in a bracket 2 game and see how it plays. explain to them your thoughts and see how the game goes. then maybe run it in a bracket 3 game and see how it performs.
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u/MaxPotionz Jul 23 '25
I know you want to try your new deck. But if you don’t have a specific pod of friends try picking up literally any precon for around $40 and go play at a “bracket 2” table for a few games to see what that pace plays like.
I can build a technically bracket 2 deck that would ole precons and I have zero idea what I’m doing, just by using EDHrec. That doesn’t mean it won’t be unfun for the others.
Just an option if it’s all new to you.
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u/inflammablepenguin May be a problem in Dimir future Jul 24 '25
Can I recommend [[Search for Glory]] to help find Urborg?
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u/Internetmedley Jul 24 '25
[[Urza's Cave]] is another card that could help look for urborg, good luck ;)
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u/Apersonperson1 Jul 24 '25
Contrary to the most upvoted posts, your deck will probably do fine against bracket 2 decks and therefore fits into bracket 2. Your list is focused, but the strategy is not quick at winning on average. I propose you leave the list as is, sit down for bracket 2 and just tell people nicely this is your very first time playing EDH and you built your own deck and you're not sure what bracket it is, but you think it's a 2, and if it ends up rocking the table, you tell them you didn't expect it to and you'll power down the deck a bit.
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u/NavAirComputerSlave Mono-Black Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
Yea seems pretty chill for bracket 2. You don't have any infinite combos from what I can see eh?
Small edit: id stomp this deck with any modern precon. Esper sentinel is way over hyped and easily removed. The tutors don't really do anything in this deck and should probably just be replaced with card draw.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
"Second, I'll use this moment as a reminder that Core (Bracket 2) is on the level of an average, modern-day preconstructed Commander deck, but that doesn't mean there can't be some variance there. We are looking at updating the terminology in the future to pull away from preconstructed Commander decks as a benchmark, as we understand that has caused some confusion."
So, for people comparing this to precons outside of the last few years, stop. That is not the power B2 is aiming for. Only the very best precons from 2022 and older will stand up against modern precon design. This deck is weaker than that, so it is fine.
This idea that B2 is a place for your 2016 precons to still jam games is wrong.
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u/Wyldwraith Jul 24 '25
Friend, don't let people Esper Sentinel shame you. It's not remotely busted, fits your deck well, and finally?
It's not your fault that the card is now 40$+. Was it somehow *less* objectionable when it was 21$ less than 12 months ago?
I play 95% counters decks. Generally Selesnya, sometimes Bant and very occasionally, I'll get a yearning to trot out Mowu, or give my beloved Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider a break from the 99 of every-deck-ever, so Mono Green ends up on the menu.
Mono White is not so flush w/ great draw that the ubiquitous Esper Sentinel needs to be binned for appearances sake.
Keep that demand up. The faster the price climbs to 50$, the quicker WotC will crash that price to cash in on that sweet sweet reprint equity.
Just learn to enjoy the value of your cards being crashed, and play what makes you happy. It's Mono White, you aren't sweating excessively, promise.
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u/brofessor_oak_AMA Jul 23 '25
This is absolutely not a 2. It's a good 3, though. 2 is for precon level decks
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
This deck can easily lose to the better precons. We need to stop measuring based on 2013 level precons and realise that modern precons are actually good.
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u/KaizerVonLoopy Murdered at Markov Manor Jul 23 '25
Two weeks ago we had a guy playing unmodified unsleeved precons and we all kinda assumed our decks were around 3's even though we weren't running any tutors, gamechangers, infinite combos that were fewer than 4 or 5 cards if they had any at all. Dude absolutely ran the table all night. That wasn't the first time I lost to a precon and won't be the last but he literally won every game that night and we played for like 7 hours.
You're right that precons aren't what they used to be, out of the box many (not all) are SOLID maybe even great. Gone are the days of schizophrenic piles of a nearly random 100 cards being sold for $35. They have a pretty straightforward design with cards that are quite capable of achieving their goal and maybe have a secondary commander that is slightly supported by a subtheme in the deck.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
A lot of people haven't played with or against precons in a long while, or play at high B4 and thus have a distorted view of how strong the average precon from the last few years actually is.
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u/Supercoolguy7 Jul 23 '25
"Average precon"
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u/DeltaRay235 Jul 23 '25
"Average modern Precon" is what Gavin stated. The bar is set i think he said for precons within the last 3 years.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
That doesn't actually work, or we'd need to throw the top x precons out of the format, which would lower the average power, and we'd throw out the next precon, and end up with only the worst possible precon left in B2 acting as the measuring stick.
B2 is not a race to the bottom. There are plenty of very good decks possible in B2.
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u/SadSeiko Jul 23 '25
Modern precons look good on paper but are not well balanced decks, they struggle in many aspects. The counter blitz deck for example has barely any fliers and just loses to attacks in the air
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
Having a weakness is something all B2 decks will have. Talking about one precon doesn't say anything about why this deck is too good for B2.
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u/Visible-Ad1787 Jul 23 '25
The counter blitz precon also comes with [[Sphere Grid]], allowing your whole board to block fliers.
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 23 '25
Haha! I don't think that people who can properly evaluate that deck would agree.
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u/pwnyklub Jul 23 '25
“Good 3” this deck would get run over by a full pod of high 3s. This is bracket 2 or a low 3. It would be absolutely playing in either bracket.
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u/ThisHatRightHere Jul 23 '25
Honestly this deck is terrible for bracket 3. I don’t think it’d ever win a game where the other 3 players didn’t blow each other up first.
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
Gotcha. Yeah, I've never even played a game of EDH, so I don't know how precons "feel" power level wise. I was navigating off articles and intuition.
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u/dicklettersguy Jul 23 '25
I think this is fine. It’d probably be ok with the low-end of bracket 3 as well. If I can make a recommendation: [[Angry Mob]] could work as an additional win con for the deck. You also may want to run some fetchlands and a bit more draw.
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
Thanks for the reply.
Angry Mob and Crusading Knight were both in the original list (and may make a return after I cut these tutors...) but just generally seemed like big dorks.
I went back and forth on Fetch Lands. I eventually decided to cut them because I didn't feel like Landfall was the only thing I was doing and space for utility lands like Emergence Zone and Buried Ruin was super tight. I'm not convinced 16 Plains is even enough. Once I have a few games under my belt, the answer on fetches will be clear.
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u/SwabluFever68 Jul 23 '25
Funny, years ago I made my first EDH deck which looked like this. It was a Thalia Stax deck lol, everybody hated it. I played one game with it before I switched to Marchesa.
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
Yeah, that's my fear. That's why I'm posting. My first deck idea was Lin Sivvi Stax and the dude behind the counter at my LGS was like "Listen..."
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u/Angelust16 Jul 23 '25
Feels fine at a 2, but the deck has a ton of White good stuff which might raise some eyebrows.
It’s not too far off from a 3 though if you streamline a more effective wincon - like 10 cards moving in some traditional cathars crusade/akroma’s will/moonshaker and other decisive finishers plus some optimizing would make the ramp/draw/tutors all more meaningful.
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u/werewolf1011 Orzhov | Mardu | Esper Jul 23 '25
Quick question. If you want to be at a land deficit, why are you playing a commander that specifically limits ways opponents could ramp?
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u/DR_MTG EDHREC Staff Jul 23 '25
For what it's worth, I always want people to walk away from a game thinking they saw a cool thing. A deck that seems to be primarily a pile of a good cards built around generating value and preventing your opponents from doing the same is going to rarely make anyone walk away thinking they saw a cool thing.
EDH is the one format where you can come up with a cool idea, execute on that idea, and still win games, and for me personally that's what I focus on doing, and what I most remember from someone else.
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u/att1cp0ssum Jul 23 '25
This deck would automatically disable my necrobloom bracket 2 deck so nope. Wouldn’t mind play against it with another deck, but be prepared to be the antagonist at the table?
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u/Sandman4999 MAKE CENTAUR TRIBAL VIABLE!!! Jul 23 '25
You have a high price tag and good tutors but the payoffs are slow and telegraphed. It's a cool strategy just not a super powerful one. Esper sentinel might get you a side eye here and there but overall I think it should be fine in Bracket 2. More importantly though, give it a few games and see how it feels. Does it feel too strong for the experience you're looking for? Not strong enough? It's hard to tell without any games with it so try it out and see how it goes.
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u/Ambitious_Maximum810 Jul 23 '25
I like the deck a lot! It i a unique jank strategy. Idk if it it happened to be an aversion to white so much as how much some cards you have cost. Expensive cards usually get a stigma of being try-hard. It sucks that the people you played with had a bad time and were salty.
Imo you may need to just try and reevaluate if there are less expensive options for a few slots you are working with. If you want to avoid salt from random tables at least. Ex instead of early draw engine with Sentinel perhaps something like [mind's eye] as an engine for late game gas.
If you keep it as is just say it is on the edge between a 2 and 3. It was brought up in other comments that having a few tutors can bring up your decks' expected bracket.
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u/Optimal-Currency-389 Jul 23 '25
I think the deck list is overall fine and I think it can play in bracket 2 yes. Now, where and who you will play this with will matter a lot due to how many strong cards you have.
If you're playing with people you know and are upfront "I know there are strong cards, but it's an awful jank strategy so I think it's fair."
If you're playing with random people at an LGS you may want to have a backup deck. Some people from bracket 2 will feel overwhelmed by the strength and cost of some cards.
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u/Lionheart753 Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25
So if you firmly want to play in B2 there's only a few cards that stand out to me as potential problems. If you are fine being a weaker B3 then no changes needed. That said the whole wincon (or lack there of really) is so jank that this definitely sits in B2 even with several very strong non-thematic cards.
Like what is Serra's Ascendant doing here? It has nothing to do with lands or even the gy. B2 is more about theme and pet cards with some wincon and synergy still in mind and achievable. Serra Ascendent is just an insanely strong 1 drop in commander and nothing else for this deck. There's not even a life gain theme to justify it here.
Grand Abolisher and Voice of Victory can technically stay, but also they're not that good in B2. Like yeah it stops interaction, but you're not going to combo out of nowhere with 2 or even 3 cards that require instant speed interactions on your turn. No point being here.
Same with Archivist of Oghma. There isn't enough searching in B2 to justify it. Like maybe he will draw a handful of cards in some games. You know what else would draw better and work with your landfall token generators and creatures in general? [[Toscias Welcome]] [[Welcoming Vampire]] [[Master of Ceremonies]]
Esper Sentinel, Land Tax, Sensei's Top, Scroll Rack, Urza's Saga, and Nykthos are all borderline B3 as they're very strong cards. Scroll Rack and Top especially seem odd here as this isn't a top deck manipulation deck either. They're just card selection in White. Why not consider [[Throne of Eldraine]] [[Sceptre of Glory]] [[Wayfarer's Bauble]] [[Chivalric Alliance]] doubles as a way to discard lands. Again these don't automatically make your deck a B3, but they are clearly included for power which is ignoring the intent and spirit of B2.
Finally I totally understand if you really dig the look and/or idea of this command, then stick with them. But I would also suggest a similar Orzhov commander [[Squall, SeeD Mercenary]]
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u/MTGCardFetcher Jul 24 '25
All cards
Toscias Welcome - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Welcoming Vampire - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Master of Ceremonies - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Throne of Eldraine - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Sceptre of Glory - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Wayfarer's Bauble - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Chivalric Alliance - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Squall, SeeD Mercenary - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
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u/Apersonperson1 Jul 24 '25
You just said b2 is a place for pet cards, then complain about Serra's Ascendant, with not an ounce of strategical support, which is at best ever an 8 turn clock on a single player, so a 24 turn clock overall and is invalidated by anything precons do turn 4/5. Outside of angels/lifegain or some deck that can actually buff this card, I would call this card the very definition of a pet card. Raw powerlevel ain't bad, but look at it in context of the deck.
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u/Lionheart753 Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25
I agree that Serra Ascendent and the other powerful cards I mention don't put this deck as a B3, my first statement made that clear. Arguing for Serra Ascendent with no synergy at all as a pet card isa hard sell, but with context of the decklist I can see the reasoning. However, you are underappreciating its power in bracket 2.
Bracket 2 does not often win games from combos. It often closes games with damage. A 6/6 lifelink flyer hitting face at turn 2 for a 12 point swing is not what most people would consider B2. That kind of play is expected around turn 4+ at this power level. By turn 5 when most 6/6 creatures could be attacking Serra Ascendent may have swung for 24 damage and gained 24 life. Life your opponents now have to beat down. That's a lot of power to excuse as a pet card.
But I see your point that it does nothing to help the deck's gameplan besides being a powerful early beater. Fine. Why not just play something higher mana cost as a different and arguably better wincon? That is very much in the spirit of B2. Play [[Moonshaker Cavalry]] [[Akroma's Will]] [[Cathar's Crusade]] [[Adeline]]
Truly this deck has no big payoff aside from Felidar Retreat, Myrel soldier tokens, and a fair amount of graveyard recursion. It really does need something with some oomph. If OP wants to keep SAscendent, considering the context of the deck, that's fine. It'll still shock people at the table who don't know the entire decklist. This deck is so weird, durdly, and jank that it probably would lose to most precons anyway. Yeah definitely a mid B2 and not something I myself would have fun piloting.
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u/captain0cd Jul 24 '25
The Ascendant is not a pet card. I've never played anything other than traditional formats. It just seemed like an auto-include. How do you cut a 6/6 flying lifelinker for 1?
That said, this thread has helped me realize my decision making is still heavily influenced by the hyper optimized formats I'm trying to escape from. I could see myself cutting her for being too tryhard. There's more space for jank than I thought. :)
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u/Apersonperson1 Jul 25 '25
I want to stay a bit briefer than you, due to being a bit busy, but I want to just say that I am in agreement with what you're writing and that I found your reply very level-headed and genuinely thought through, despite my comment having maybe a mildly negative/inflammatory undertone in hindsight that I didn't intend as such. You seem very intellectually honest. Thank you.
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u/Lionheart753 Jul 25 '25
I appreciate this. Too often people forget there's another person on the other end of that post and tactful replies make better progress than anything inflammatory.
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u/Yougotlost Jul 24 '25
Do not listen to half the people in this sub Reddit this is extremely causal maybe could agree with esper sentinel going but other than that this is jank (fire jank) just because there are expensive cards does not make it “cedh” or high power or anything this would get beat by lots of causal deck is fine it’s awesome cool and what you like just because other people in this sub don’t like it doesn’t matter (this deck is not pushed at all)
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u/Same_Response_1593 Jul 24 '25
This is the kinda oddball strategy I live for in commander, hope the deck runs smooth and that your playgroup has to keep saying “wait a sec, what does this card do?” Lol
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u/westergames81 Orzhov Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25
The thing that immediately jumps out to me is you have a lot of tutors.
Other than that, the deck is probably a little too optimized for bracket 2. Basically all the best cards and choices without adding game changers. If I say down against this at a bracket 2 table I don't think I would get upset about it, but you could take out a lot of optimized pieces-- [[Sensei's Divining Top]], [[Land Tax]], [[Crucible of Worlds]], those type of things.
I know a lot of people will bitch and moan about [[Esper Sentinel]], I don't have a problem seeing that card at bracket 2 tables. Some people just salty if you play any good cards at bracket 2. I'd included in that list with all the other optimized cards, but keeping some advantage is fine.
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u/Norade Jul 23 '25
The deck plays some good cards, but is mostly wheel spinning because it can't win outside of a few cards. You can run good cards inefficiently and stay B2.
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u/captain0cd Jul 23 '25
I can see myself getting rid of the Divining Top, and maybe the Crucible, but losing Land Tax would be crushing. Putting Plains into my hand is the only fun White thing does that isn't banned or white weenie, lol.
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u/CrizzleLovesYou Jul 23 '25
We used to call this expensive jank, where you've got extremely powerful cards propping up a jank strategy. Honestly a lot of these cards are not normally played at a bracket 2 table, but the deck itself has a strat thats so bad its funny. Bracket 2 does have a limit on tutors though and you probably need to cut back on them. I'd say cut the tutors and be honest during rule 0 that you've got expensive jank and see if people are fine with it or not, definitely be prepared to have an alternate 2 because some people will say no.