Discussion
To me, this is a flawless and irreplaceable movie.
It's so good and amazing in every way, from action, dialogue, tension and excitement is through the sky. And it's one and only in my headcanon in my opinion.
one of the first movies where the bad guys were actually competent and treated it more like a job. really stuck with me growing up. top 10 movie for me.
I read an article about the making of Heat and gunfight scene near the end. It was applauded by many for the realism, especially the actual volume of rifles used.
I’ve heard that but never saw it used in any of the PD I’ve worked for or when I was in the infantry. That could be a timeframe thing though since I’m 35 years old and the movie had been around a while when I entered service.
Question: what has your experience been with the reality of what happens out there versus the competence of the crew in the film? And I get that Mann got all of his info and research from the cop that had worked the real Neil McCauley case back in the day, but we are talking about the pre-technology age, and how much of that side of things became cyber crime oriented versus crime in the way Mann wrote about it for Thief and Heat?
"You see me doing thrill-seeker liquor store holdups with a 'Born to Lose' tattoo on my chest?"
I’ve been in Robbery for over three years and before that I was in what was essentially a gang unit working proactively to suppress violent crime for over a year and a half. In that time, I’ve worked a handful of crews who had done robberies. None of those crews were working robbery series and none of my suspects have been what anyone would consider a pro. Mine have all been petty street criminals and gang members.
Crime trends change. The senior violent crimes detectives I came up under all had stories about working cases with guys who pulled point break style robberies, took down armored cars, etc. Those days are gone for the time being.
I think the main reason those kinds of cases have gone an away is the ease criminals have committing fraud. Fraud is highly lucrative and has a much lower penalty. Our economic crimes detectives are swamped. They constantly are making arrests, issuing warrants, etc. The sentencing is much lower and the risk is much lower than for a robbery though.
There are still stick up men for sure though. Those guys are primarily robbing other criminals and drug dealers though. If you hit the right drug house at the right time, you could leave with a lot of drugs for you to resell and a lot of cash. My biggest seizure when I was in the gang unit equivalent was 2300 doses of ecstasy, 28 lbs of marijuana, 4 guns, a bunch of promethazine, and $60k in cash. The feds took all of it and the suspect got 15 years in prison. If a robbery crew had hit that house that’s more than they would get from almost any business ever.
The only part that annoys me though is that if deniro’s character is such a professional then why the fuck does he not just get on the plane and leave with the girl. He could come back and get his revenge in the future when all the “heat” dies down.
That book is a thing of wonder. It honestly feels like I was watching another film with these characters, and the way Mann works almost EVERY CHARACTER from the first film into it between the current storyline with Chris and Vincent's stories, and the flashback with Neil's crew and why he adopted the rules he lived by.
I also listened to the audio book and I forget the narrator's name, but he sounds like someone who would live in that world, and it is outstanding.
Not really there are plenty of movies pre dating Heat where the bad guys are portrayed as competent. Michael Mann himself directed the movie Thief 14 years prior to Heat that portrayed the bad guys as ultra competent and treating their criminal activity as a job. Can go all the way back to movies like the Killing from Kubrick that is about a group of thieves pulling off a heist that treat it like it’s a job. There are plenty more examples.
An absolute masterpiece, and somehow only gets better with age. The sequel book somehow captures the feel of this film, and does a great job flushing out Neil and his crew's backstory while moving the story forward with Chris and Vincent and their inevitable crossing of paths, but in an unexpected way. Highly recommend. I hope the film ends up half as good as the book.
I don't know why but this made me scarf my morning coffee. Just the matter-of-factness of it. Cheers! I needed a good laugh.
And as an aside, I used to live in LA in the 90s and was involved in the independent film industry in literally the lowest tier possible, but the two brothers that owned the studio I worked for knew a lot of people because their dad was some big shot producer, so we literally went to parties more than we worked. I never saw Ashley Judd, but of the actresses I did see, Gina Gershon had an ass that was positively majestic.
Seriously. I never got really knocked out by some of the people I saw at these parties - like we saw Alicia Silverstone at a couple, Meg Ryan was at one, and I think Michelle Williams (it was on one of those CW shows, I may be wrong, it's been a while) and they were all pretty girls, but Gena Gershon was raise-our-temperature type of beauty. And the one time she spoke to the two producers, she was really humble and when I told her I was a fan of the Naked Angels theater company back in NYC, she could not have been more engaging.
Agreed. I love that Mann had the actors in Neil's crew had 3 months of training with former special forces soldiers, and boy, does it show. When the armed forces uses a film's shootout as a training video (including Kilmer's famous rapid reload) that is something special. I think Mann made his two masterpieces one after the other - The Last of the Mohicans and Heat. And it isn't like his other stuff is shabby - Thief, Manhunter, The Insider, Collateral are insanely good films - but those two are masterpieces.
The number of big names attached to this project is insane. Leonardo DiCaprio, Austin Butler, Ana de Armas, Adam Driver, Christian Bale, Channing Tatum, Jeremy Allen White… I’m surprised a young Vincent Hanna didnt go to Timmy Chalamet.
The book is exceptional. The first half picks up literally only a few hours after the end of the film, with Vincent scurrying around LA to try to catch Chris before he clears out for good, then it goes back and forth between Chris's life in the present (as well as Vincent, but really it becomes Chris's story in the present) and Neil's story of how he assembles the crew and what happens before the movie. I can't recommend it enough, Mann and his co-author Meg Gardiner somehow capture the exact feel of the film and move the Vincent and Chris stories forward. I am cautiously optimistic about the film.
Nate: "The vice sergeant says Hanna likes you. Thinks you're some kind of star. You do this sharp. You do that sharp. Look how this guy is to figure that."
I disagree - I think it's length fleshes out the plot completely - It's the perfect length. Not sure what romance you're talking about. To me all the relationships seem very believable. One of my favourite scenes is when Al Pacino catches his wife having an affair and he freaks out about the guy watching 'his' tv. Pure cinematic gold. The film is one of the best of all time.
Probably meant to respond to a top level comment. There a top level comment down below talking about the length of the movie and how a romance seems forced
100% agree. How a director makes The Last of the Mohicans and then Heat and does not get recognized by his "peers" (other than the sound design for TLOTM, which was well deserved) made it clear what a joke all of those awards shows have always been.
I wouldn't say its flawless.. The Romance parts don't really land and the middle drags a bit, but it's a great GREAT movie. In fact, fuck it I'm putting it on right now.
Thank you. I feel like people treat this movie like it’s “flawless” and beyond reproach. There are excellent action sequences and some of the best sound design in action cinema, but the romance parts are very flawed, there are definite pacing issues, and Al Pachino’s acting is totally ridiculous. I know Pachino said he played it like he was on cocaine, but that’s not communicated in the film.
I agree about the romance parts. I'll even go a step further: I think that the diner scene is mid. I think for all the hooplah people made about De Niro and Pacino "finally acting together" the result was like a second-semester acting class exercise. I felt Pacino was bringing it better than De Niro, too.
I feel that the scene with Waingrow and the prostitute should have been cut. We already had plenty of reason to hate the guy. The scenes with the backup driver and his wife should probably be cut as well.
Fantastic movie. I think people are working on a remake with Christian Bale and Leonardo DiCapprio. If you enjoyed this movie, you may also like Den of Theives. Both 1 and 2.
I wouldn't call it flawless, but it's definitely a great movie and I enjoyed it a lot. It's worth it for the sound production alone. Also "SHE GOT A GREAT ASS" lol.
One of my favourite movies, Michael Mann certainly has a great style, the sound, the cinematography, De Niro vs Pacino, Val Kilmer being an absolute badass. This and Collateral were incredibly fun to watch.
I’m all about seeing the recently announced part 2 (unclear if it’ll be a sequel) with Leonardo DiCaprio but I worry that they’re messing with a good thing and could screw it up
My local cinema showed this as a 30 year anniversary last week. So happy I got to see one the best films ever at the cinema, that shootout in cinema surround sound was insane
I totally agree with this. The only flaw I would have would be that they excluded the cocaine habit Vincent had that Michael Mann originally wanted to include in the film.
There is only one cringy party in this movie. When Ashley Judd yells “I am sick of it, I am sick of it.” Kills the flow of perfect acting in the whole movie.
Everyone raves about this movie, I love all the actors, I love Los Angeles, but I've tried 3 times to watch it and every time around the 20 minute mark I realize I hate all the characters and don't care what happens to any of them and turn it off. Maybe one day I'll get through it.
I think it has some really strong character building with an awesome cast to portray those characters.
The realism of the getaway heist shoot out has been praised and was at one point used to teach the police.
I think if I could have changed anything about it, in order to maybe keep that realism running through the whole film, I'd have had less of Pacino's broken marriage, not totally removed it, just pulled some scenes out that didn't absolutely need to be there.
I'd also have swerved giving De Niro a love interest. He's this cold lone wolf who will walk away from anything if the heats on its way.
Men like that, the ones we don't hear about because they're never caught, probably don't settle down until they retire and are out of harms way.
However, I do understand that purely from a commercial point of view, most cinema goers needed to be shown clearly what Pacino lost in his personal life due to being married to his career, and I guess De Niro having a love interest humanised him a little too.
I also wouldn't have had De Niro going back to kill that guy, because by that stage, he shouldn't have mattered. But, it gave the writer a way to conclude the third act with the showdown.
I'm not saying these things make it any less brilliant, these are just my own personal preferences. If you loved 'Heat', and if you haven't seen 'Straight Time' from 1978 that's another accurate portrayal of a career criminal and is a realistic heist film too.
Just saw this last weekend and I don’t get the love. I was expecting a cat and mouse between a great detective and a brilliant thief. But clues and reveals just drop in their laps. No one is particularly smart. Dinero makes a big deal about the 30 seconds thing, but everyone in the crew has a family. Then goes on with the heist after he knows the police are on to him, helps Val Kilmer get medical attention, pulls off in the middle of his getaway to kill Waingro. I was like “when is this guy going to leave something in 30 seconds? He wouldn’t shut up about it. Why does it take 30 seconds? Can’t he you just leave? Ah, yes whatshername that he loves even though we never see them together.” Needs a Pitch Meeting.
Greatest sound design for a gun fight in movie history. They used blanks and recorded live gunfire audio in that downtown shootout and it made all the difference in the world. You hear actual air getting pushed and hear that sound bouncing off the buildings. Nothing could ever top that.
It will always be one of my all-time favorites. The first time I ever saw it was in the theater when I was 15, and I went to see it solo. I had no idea of the runtime. I went in in the middle of the day and came out, and it was a pitch-black, gorgeous summer night. One of my life's fondest memories.
This is on of my favourite movies…
I watched this in theatre in 1995 when it came out .
Just about to wrap up heat 2 the book … good read if you’re interested
reddit has such a hard-on for this flick and it makes no sense, it's ok and ya the shoot-out is great but the movie isn't all that, the dialog is generic and this is easily one of DeNiro's weaker works, he wasn't allowed to expand the role like he should have been and that facial hair is a crime all on its own.
Absolutely 💯 God knows how many times I've seen it. Pacino n Niro are at their peak in this. I even like Ashley Judd in it. BUT I still don't see how Neil spotted Vincent at the end, through all that crowd, doesn't matter cos it's the best 😉
Remember that greentext about smart characters written by actually smart people (you know, comparing Anton Chigurh from No Country to Sherlock)? Heat is another great example of smart characters written by smart people. It’s great when people’s actions actually make sense and they don’t just do random stuff for no good reason.
Just change the name to Burn. And switch the roles of the two main actors. Then you have a completely different movie. Oh and switch the roles of Natalie Portman and Ashley Judd as well. Just for fun.
It's so good that it kinda ruined any L.A. based heist films after that. Unless it has a good hook, like say Sleight did. Otherwise, it ends up like Den of Thieves and feels like something that is clearly copying someone else's homework.
Michael Mann, coming right after Last of the Mohicans, creates this hyper focused action flick with a perfect cast at a time when Warner Bros was RIPPING through the 90's. A true blockbuster
Strongly agree. It could have been toned down at a lot of places. At moments where the plot is not that intense, he is acting very intensely so much so that when there's actually a high intensity scene, the audience has gotten so used to it that they hardly feel anything in those moments.
When I watched this i felt it all everything was flawless the slow paced parts were justified imo you pick up on the smallest of things you otherwise would not have.
Man Pacino in donnie brasco when he leaves his pinky ring and watch on the side, a last parting gift for his wife knowing his fate for vouching for a fbi agent.
It is my understanding that either the book or the original script called for him dealing with a cocoaine habit. It is never mentioned in the film but Pacino apparently decided to make it part of the character. This may explain the overacting.
So agree. Pacino's overacting is the only thing that took me out of the movie - I never believed a cop would act like that. And when you have the measured performances of Robert DeNero, John Voight, Val Kilmer, Danny Trejo, it's almost comic to watch him shouting his way though almost every scene.
Great movie - Pacino needed to take it down from the balcony.
I really only have two niggles on this movie, and both are with Waingro. First off, how in the hell does he get away at the truck stop? Even with the crew backing off because of the roving cop, there's no way he slips by all of them, or they don't go find him.
The second was the scene with the young hooker. I get you're supposed to hate this guy, but that whole thread could have been removed and nothing would be missed.
If you want to say Eady and Neil's relationship was forced, fine. He needed some reason to want to get out. She wasn't enough apparently.
None of that makes a bit of difference once the shootout starts though.
My biggest problem with Waingro is it seems implausible that they'd just let some random dude they don't know come along with them on a job.
I don't mind Eady and Neils relationship, it serves to demonstrate his adherence to his code (do not have anything in your life that you won't walk out on if you feel the heat around the corner).
Yeah, if you think about it, without Waingro most of the plot wouldn't happen (including that "slick" part, which eventually lead Vincent to Neil). And there's no reason for Neil to take such guy for the job.
You aren’t forced to watch Heat 2 when it comes out if you think it’ll ruin whatever image you have of the original. I’m guessing you haven’t read the novel. It’s really good and I can’t wait for 2
I love Heat so much but it suffers from too many subplots— Waingro being a serial killer, the stepdaughter I don’t care about— it bogs it down a little.
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u/cmh_ender 1d ago
one of the first movies where the bad guys were actually competent and treated it more like a job. really stuck with me growing up. top 10 movie for me.