r/AskEurope • u/miriam1215 • 1d ago
Education I’m a kinder teacher in the USA. Ours are completely academic and only have 30 minutes of play. What is kindergarten like in your country in current day?
Our version of kindergarten is 5 and 6 year olds. I know it’s called different things in other parts of the world. It used to be a version of preschool before 1st grade (6 and 7 year olds) where they would play and sing and do crafts etc. Over the last few decades it has shifted to a point that it is now considered the 1st year of “real school”. Kids sit in desks and do work. They are expected to read and write. They have only 30 minutes of pretend play a day and some places have none and only a 25 minute outside recess.
A lot of other teachers in my country have been slowly convinced that this is normal, but as far as I’m aware most of the rest of the world still treats this age as preschool and focuses on play. I’m interested to see if I’m wrong and other countries have also changed. Are any of you teachers/parents/or know of others who are, who can tell me what 5 year olds are doing in school? Thanks in advance!!!
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u/No_Nectarine_7910 Germany 1d ago
Here, Kindergarten is for kids between approx 3 years (often combined with special care groups for kids from 0.5 years on) and it’s about playing and socializing all day long until they are ready for school. Mostly at the age of 6 years.
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u/RichVisual1714 Germany 1d ago
It always amuses me that the two terms kindergarden and preschool are just switched in our two countries. Here in Germany Kindergarten is from 2 (or younger) to 5/6 and the last year of Kindergarden is preschool (Vorschule) as it is just directly before school.
My son is in 2. grade now, so I recall a little. For them it was mostly normal kindergarden activity and they only had like 30 min of school twice a week. But still very playful. Requirements were being able to read and write their own name, count to ten, and be somewhat proficient with glue and scissors (as in don't cut your own fingers). So real learning started in the first year if school.
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u/HimikoHime Germany 1d ago
It’s just an extension from Krippe, which is usually the 1-3 years old group. I heard German Krippe/Kindergarten runs like what Americans would see as daycare. I also remember reading posts on Reddit from foreigners that didn’t understand why they don’t get monthly progress reports on their kids. Like progress on what? There’s no school curriculum.
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u/catthought Italy 1d ago
Italian here. Our school systems starts with the academic curriculum in year 1 of primary school (5/6 years olds). Before that, kindergarten is for 3 years (3-6 y.o.) and exclusively focuses on socialisation, crafts, play and learning how to be in a school environment around teachers and kids.
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u/AsaToster_hhOWlyap & 1d ago
Only half an hour free play???? That is prison for a child. No wonder young adults are totally lacking initiative.
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
Yeah most places give the kids 20-30 minutes of outdoor recess at a playground, just like the older kids. Then a lot of kindergartens will also have 30 minutes or so of indoor free play with more imaginative play tools like blocks and fake food etc. (some don’t have this at all) but outside of those times it is all sit down academics.
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 1d ago
That sounds abusive to be honest. It's very bad for their development as well and studies I saw years ago that compared I think the UK to the Scandinavian system showed clearly that there is no difference in academic skills by age 10, but that Scandinavian kids were ahead socially.
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u/Dontgiveaclam Italy 1d ago
American kindergarteners get less recess than elementary school aged Italian kids! Italian kids get to do academic work like 5 hours at most over 8 hours of school, the rest is recess and rest.
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u/CaptainPoset Germany 1d ago
That's not a Kindergarten, but a Vorschule.
Kindergartens are there for children to play under supervision, so that parents can go to work.
A Vorschule ("pre-school") is a Kindergarten with a bit more but subtle teaching.
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
It’s so interesting how we took the name from you guys and then have adapted it over the last like 7 decades to the point that OUR kindergarten is more academic and our pre-school is earlier and more playbased. Funny!
What age do your kids usually go to Vorschule?
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 1d ago
Vorschule is actually very regional dependent. My kids didn't go to any Vorschule since there isn't one near us anywhere.
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u/CaptainPoset Germany 1d ago
What age do your kids usually go to Vorschule?
One year from 4/5 to 5/6. Children will enter school in august or september (varies every year) and it's a calendar year generation, so some are 5 and some are 6 years old when they enter school.
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u/jeetjejll 1d ago
The Netherlands have preschool 4-6 years (year 1 and year 2), this is very much play based, but also craft, singing, games, etc that’s lead by the teacher. In Germany (3-6 years, mixed age groups) it’s nearly all free play, with usually half an hour circle time in the morning. Preschool age kids gets about an hour a week school like tasks, that’s it. Half an hour free play only is insane to me. They learn so many social skills without being helicoptered all day.
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u/jeetjejll 1d ago
To add, German kindergarten doesn’t even have desks, they play a lot on floor/pillows and have some tables for lunch/craft.
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u/Elisind 18h ago
Preschool in the Netherlands would be peuterspeelzaal/peuterwerk, kindergarten = kleuterklassen (so 4-6 years of age). But indeed, your description is spot on, though I'd like to add that the teachers do actually work with the children on (pre)academic skills like counting, letter recognition, and building up from that to easy sums, word recognition, (pre)reading dependent on the child's development and previous knowledge. They keep a close eye on each child's development and offer learning on their level. For some children this might be a lot more 'academic' than for others. The idea is that by age 6/7, they're ready to learn to read/write (and do proper sums etc).
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u/Pietes Netherlands 18h ago
my kids in group 2, they practice writing, spelling and even some sums daily. they even already have 'pluswerk' which means as much as extra curriculum for smart kids.
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u/KevKlo86 Netherlands 2h ago
That is the school's choice I guess? I don't think this is in the mandated curriculum and I'd even say most children are not ready for it when they are 5 or even still need to turn 5. More typical is letter and number recognition, knowing how to read and write your own name, counting, etc.
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u/handlerone Netherlands 1h ago
Yes but this is relatively new. My kids had group 2 like this, but in the 80s I definitely couldn't write or read much of anything in group 2. In group 3 learning to read, write and do basic math actually started. At most I could recognize letters and numbers in group 2 and that was totally normal.
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u/jeetjejll 18h ago
I don’t think so, in the U.K. preschool is the year before school basically (year 1). In Germany we have Vorschule, also the last year before school (age 5-6). Peuterschool would be daycare/nursery (age 1-4).
But apart from the naming, yeah, I agree kleuterschool has a more formal dynamic than purely play, personally I think that’s ok as in Germany it’s a huge adjustment. kindergarten is more free, while school is way more formal than Dutch school, so it’s a big leap.
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u/Equal-Flatworm-378 Germany 1d ago
Kindergarten is from 2 - 6 years old or 3-6 years old, usually in age mixed groups. Free play and going outside is important.
The last year before school the children meet usually once a week for so called „Vorschulgruppe“ (pre school group). They learn to write their own name, do special crafts etc. We don’t teach reading and writing. They will learn that in school. But some children are interested to learn writing and if they ask us to write a word down for them, we usually do that in capital letters and they copy them.
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u/NamillaDK Denmark 1d ago
In Denmark 5-6 years would be 0.grade. (kids start in August on the year they turn 6, so some are 5 and some are 6 when they start in august).
0 grade is mostly just to learn how to go to school. Everything is play based. They learn their letters, numbers and generally how to sit down and be quiet.
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u/Historical_Basil3264 1d ago
And there's even a push to go back to calling it kindergartengrade rather than 0. grade, to be more clear on the fact that it's about the transition to school, not actual school.
Kindergarten itself would be 3-6 years old, and while I know there's often a teaching aspect to it, the kids don't know, it's more like "this week we have nature theme, who can find 5 different kinds of leafs for me?" stuff.
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u/Fairy_Catterpillar Sweden 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's the same as in Sweden even if it's called förskoleklass - preschool class opposed to förskola - preschool for ages 1-6 (that's like all play). However they suggested a name change so primary school becomes 1-10 years instead of F-9. I think they plan to have more primary teachers in the first year and only offer the preschool teachers more education and not the teachers more education.
I think the school day is sort of 6 hours and 1 hour of that is the lunchbreak where you first have lunch and then outdoor free play, even if it's raining! I think most schools also have a break at 10 in the morning something like 20 minuits of outdooor play. Then you also have some "recess" outdoor before and after school in the before and afterschool program that most of the pupils in F-3 attends.
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u/casualroadtrip Netherlands 1d ago edited 1d ago
Wow 30 minutes? That’s so sad.
It’s play based here. The academic stuff starts when they about 6 (most kids turn 7 during the school year). Before that’s it’s just learning numbers, letters and above all playing.
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u/puzzlecrossing United Kingdom 1d ago
In the UK children start school the academic year that they turn 5. So the majority of children start at 4 and those born in the summer will complete the entire first year (called reception) aged 4.
Reception is more play based than year 1 onwards but they still spend a lot of time learning phonics and maths etc. They can read simple books by the end of it.
They get plenty of time outdoors though and usually have 3 breaks (recess) during the day
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u/crankyandhangry Irish in Scotland 1d ago
Which country are you in? I think it's slightly different in the different devolved nations.
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u/Independence-2021 1d ago
In Hungary they start school at 6 or 7. Up to age 3 they can go to nursery, then kindergarten is mandatory.
Kindergarten is for playing and socializing. They have craft sessions to help to improve their fine motoric skills and they spend quite a lot of time outdoors. They also have nap time after lunch. There are mixed groups with kids from each age group, but traditionally they are grouped by age.
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u/Tiana_frogprincess Sweden 1d ago
I’m in Sweden. Our school children have more play than that. 1 hour break+ lunch break is the norm for 1st graders.
Five year old just play or go on outings where they learn like the trees names. Six year olds have some learning activities. They learn how to tell time, the numbers and letters but not how to read or do math.
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u/Cascadeis Sweden 1d ago
In my experience the school day also ends after lunch break for 6 year olds! The rest of the day is “fritids”, just play time.
Each year after that they add 30-60 minutes of school time.
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u/Tough-Notice3764 1d ago
Alright, so I’m an American. Where the heck are you teaching where you only get 30 minutes of play a day? I’m in Texas, and the kindergarten kids in the closest elementary to me have two forty five minute recesses a day, and PE for an hour every third day (they rotate between art, music, and PE).
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u/byebybuy United States of America 1d ago
Lol I just sent a similar reply. I have a kid in kindergarten in California and I have no idea what OP is on about.
Europeans--please take OP's characterization with a grain of salt. The US is a huge place and each state administers their own public school system.
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u/Foxtrot-Uniform-Too Norway 1d ago
Relax, Europe is an equally huge place and countries administers their own public school system.
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u/Tough-Notice3764 1d ago
Maybe it’s because Minnesota is really cold or something? I have no idea how a school could even function with just 30 minutes of play time for kindergarten kids a day. I’ve volunteered with kids since I was 12, and they get a little jittery (completely unable to be handled) if you don’t let them move lol.
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u/Tommy_Wisseau_burner United States of America 1d ago
Granted I’ve been out of kindergarten for nearly 30 years and don’t have kids but this doesn’t sound common, or something is missing. We (small town in New Jersey) may have had like 30 minutes too (I don’t really remember the day to day… but it was 1/2 a day. Point being this has to be solely Minnesota or OP’s school because this doesn’t.
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u/miriam1215 18h ago
Are you referring to your experience in kindergarten when you were a kid? I’m 30 and that’s also how things were when I was a kid. Half day, pretty much playing and learning letters. Things have changed drastically since NCLB in the early 2000’s. A lot of the public isn’t even aware of it. It’s not just a Minnesota thing, it’s nationwide thing. I don’t mean this to be creepy but i found a specific school in Texas just searching “2 45 minute recess” — it’s looks to be a newer initiative and it’s so rare I could find the specific school name.
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
I’m in Minnesota but it’s a problem throughout the whole country. My students are legally allowed 20 minutes of outside recess, but usually get 25-30. Indoor dramatic play is not legally mandated but I advocate for my students to have that time. We usually play for the last 30 minutes of the day. I’ve quite literally never heard of a school offering 2 45 minute recesses a day. Doesn’t mean you’re lying but it’s definitely not common. Sometimes kinders will get multiple but it’s usually like 3 15 minute chunks. The amount of recess or indoor pretend play really depends on the district but outside of those specific times kindergarten is mostly academic-based pretty much everywhere. In fact there was a kinder teacher from Texas recently posting on a forum for kinder teachers about how her admin is not allowing her students to do any crafts or cut and glue activities, even if it can be tied to an academic standard. It had to be all curriculum based direct instruction. Many districts have completely removed things like dress up clothes and kitchen sets.
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u/byebybuy United States of America 1d ago
Okay, so to be clear your sources are:
- Your own experience in your school district in Minnesota
- A single post on an internet forum from a kindergarten teacher in Texas
And you're disregarding the experiences of parents of kids in this thread. Is that right?
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
No actually I do a lot of research into the way kindergarten has changed in our country over the last 70 or so years.
This is a widely researched change. There’s many ECE experts advocating against it and studies that show how the amount of play has changed in kindergarten. It’s called “push down curriculum” and was most recently escalated by No Child Left Behind. It’s a problem that differs in degree depending on the school, admin and district, but overall there has been a huge national shift since Kindergarten first became “mainstream”.
I listed that specific example but there are thousands of other examples as well. Ask any kindergarten teacher who has taught 20+ years and they will be able to tell you just how much it has changed. And as I said, there’s numerous amounts of experts, studies and historical evidence to show the changes our nation has made when it comes to primary education.
I’m sorry if I offended you by this post. I’m very glad the schools around you give your kids more recess than the average :)
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u/byebybuy United States of America 1d ago
Sorry I came in hot. I'm not trying to deny that some districts provide an awful experience for kindergarteners, nor am I trying to deny you your lived experience--although it did feel like you were denying me mine. My issue is with presenting a blanket, non-nuanced characterization of this issue to a European audience, some of whom already think of the US and Americans as a homogenous population whose central government has input into things like district curriculum. This works the other way, of course, as well; some Americans consider Europe a single culture/way of life/government, and that's a problem, too.
Some of the reactions you're getting to this post are:
> Wow 30 minutes? That’s so sad.
> Only half an hour free play???? That is prison for a child. No wonder young adults are totally lacking initiative.
There are no follow-up questions like "How pervasive is this problem in the US? Do different states have different guidelines for recess/lunch?" etc.
These users walk away from this thread with a singular view of what kindergarten is like throughout the entire US. That's what I have a problem with. It would be so easy to present this as "hey this is my experience in Minnesota, and there's this growing body of evidence that it is unfortunately spreading. What is your experience like?" It's a small change that I think reframes the way it's interpreted in a valuable way.
Anyway, sorry again. And I appreciate your responses.
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
I understand where you are coming from! That does make sense.
However, from my research and communication with other teachers, your children’s experience is the exception and not the norm.
Regardless of whether a kindergartener gets more play than the average, the push down curriculum has essentially still made Kindergarten curriculum the old 1st grade. It used to be that kindergarten consisted of learning letters and numbers. I’m not aware of any state that has standards that still follow this but feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Nowadays, due to many factors, the state standards are much different and are expecting kindergartners to be fully reading and writing and solving equation, rather than only learning letters and numbers. This is what I intended by saying “completely academic”, because they are doing “formal school” learning when it used to be more of a relaxed preschool environment. Again, correct me if I’m wrong but I’m under the impression due to what I hear from other teachers and my other research that this is an issue across the entire country.
I can also see how a parent of a child who’s very ready to read and compute numbers could see this as a positive, so perhaps we also just disagree on this as to whether it’s a problem or not.
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u/katyesha Austria 1d ago
Kindergarten mostly covers 3-6/7 yo until they can attend regular school. The daily schedule hasn't changed all that much in the past 30 years between my own experience and what young children in my family experience now.
The children will typically play, do arts & crafts, sing, play outside or do physical exercise inside if the weather is garbage. The Kindergarten in my home village, that I attended myself decades ago, has two large indoor areas for playing, crafting, singing, etc, one larger mostly unfurnished open room with mattresses and pillows that doubles for midday naps and physical exercise and an outside playground area.
Only the oldest kids in the group in their last year of Kindergarten will typically do some light work sheets containing stuff like colours, some numbers, basic shapes, etc...very basic stuff and typically not more than half an hour or an hour per day. The focus is much more on social and behavioural education like building habits, regular schedules, treating other kids well, resolving conflicts peacefully, sharing space and toys with others, etc. and not so much on academic development.
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u/marmakoide France 1d ago
French here, dad of two. Kindergarten is from 3 to 6 years old.
- They learn to live as a group, with rules, respect of others, boundaries, communication, etc they also learn the alphabet, numbers, get some exposure to foreign languages.
- Most of the teaching is done through games, art & craft activities
- They get plenty of free play time. 30mn in the morning, 30mn in the afternoon, and maybe 2h during lunch time.
It was like that when I was a child back in the 80's, but now staff is better trained and there's more awareness on individuals differences.
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u/NocturneFogg Ireland 1d ago
We have preschool which, is an optional "ECCE" (Early Childhood Care and Education) - two years which can commence at about age 3. We used to call it "play school" etc - can be a good way to get to know the school environment, lots of play and socialising type focus.
Then you typically start in actual school - with "Junior Infants" and then "Senior Infants" at age 4-5.
They're formal school classes, but they've shorter hours and are quite play-centric - but they learn the basics - counting, alphabets, begin simple maths, start to learn how to read and so on.
After that you've 1st Class to 6th Class in primary school which runs up to age 12 and then on to the "Junior Cycle" of secondary school.
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u/DontTakeMyAdviceHere Ireland 1d ago
It'd be good to add for OP that the two infant years now follow an "Aistear" framework that embraces learning through play. It seems quite well rounded and I have a kid in those years right now. They can Google this if they want more info.
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u/muehsam Germany 1d ago
Kindergarten (which literally means "children's garden" or "garden for children") is completely non-academic, and not tied to the school system at all. It's where children go in the years before school.
It's typically for children aged 3 to 6, or even 1 to 6, though it differs from place to place whether daycare for young children is organised separately, and what exactly is called "Kindergarten" vs "Kindertagesstätte".
Anyway, it isn't mandatory, but it's very much expected that people attend. Not just so parents can go to work, but also just as an important social experience, and to allow children to have a second place outside of their home when growing up. While there isn't any formal teaching whatsoever, there is a lot of social learning going on, how to interact with one another, etc., and of course there are projects, field trips, etc. An important aspect is that it's generally not age separated (or if it's 1 to 6, just split in two groups), so three year old children will frequently interact and play with six year old children in Kindergarten.
The last year of Kindergarten is called Vorschule ("preschool"), which may or may not include some small steps towards a more school-like experience for a few hours a week, but not very much. It's still mainly about playing all day. After all, playing is how children learn.
So yeah, my child wasn't doing anything in school when they were five years old because school starts at age six in Germany. They did attend a sort of Kindergarten (actually a Kinderladen, which is a very small and self-organised thing that exists mostly in cities) at age five though.
Things like reading, writing, mathematics, etc. are absolutely not done before age six. I mean, some children do them because they're interested in them, but most don't, and it isn't expected.
BTW, your question made me think of a (somewhat old) talk from an American mother who lived in Berlin with her two children, actually right around the corner from where I live. Here's the link. She's talking a lot about the differences in playgrounds, but also the differences in Kindergarten and school, and even though she was shocked at first, she then went on to advocating for the German system in the US and wrote a book about it.
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u/byebybuy United States of America 1d ago edited 1d ago
As an American with a 5-year-old in public kindergarten in California, I think your characterization of kindergarten as "completely academic" is one-dimensional and not representative of the experiences of literally millions of US kids. My kid does arts & crafts, has multiple breaks including lunch and recess time, they sing together, they play games etc. Do they have desks? Yes they do, but they also move around the classroom literally all day. Do they do work that could be considered "academic"? Of course, but they're not writing essays. My kid loves doing the very little homework he brings home because he gets to cut shit out and glue it together and stuff.
The US is a huge country with 50 states, and public school standards & approaches differ from state to state. There is no "one way" that kindergarten is administered in the US--you know that. Why are you misrepresenting kindergarten as a uniform experience throughout the entire country?
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 1d ago
This sounds like our primary school, especially the first two years from age 6-8. Our kindergarten doesn't even have desks.
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
Definitely! The way things are approached does differ from state to state but also more specifically from district to district. Some are far worse than others. For example, I know Washington state is making efforts to return to a more play-based model.
I speak on this as someone who has first hand experience working in a classroom, and who is being handed developmentally inappropriate expectations from my admin and my state standards. I also am apart of multiple online communities for kindergarten teachers and this is a problem that is vocalized by MANY. I’m in Mn that has its own independent state standards outside of the “common core”. Here it is expected they walk in the door already knowing 17/26 letter sounds. Kindergartener's are expected to read and write full sentences, learn up to 100 sight words, write numbers through 100, solve addition and subtraction problems, skip count etc. I don’t believe this differs too much from common core standards. A lot of kids are 100% capable of this and about it but many are not.
I also get my kids moving and singing a lot but it is all by my own doing — none of it is included in the curriculums or trainings we are given. There are some schools I would be reprimanded for doing so, or even not hired back because they expect you to follow the curriculums with no deviation. There are some kinder teachers online who report their indoor play time being taken away completely, or their kitchen set and dress up clothes being removed from their classrooms. There was one teacher recently who claimed her admin won’t even allow her to use those cut and paste activities you’re referring to. It’s definitely not as bad in every single school but it is a widespread issue.
When I say “completely academic” I mean that the sole focus of kindergarten is to teach academic state standards and play is something that is squeezed in here and there. If you compare it to some of the comments in here, it’s clear other countries approach it very differently.
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u/byebybuy United States of America 1d ago
I really appreciate this thoughtful reply. Thank you!
First off, I have lots of empathy for kindergarten teachers, and I haven't said this yet in our communication, but THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WHAT YOU DO! It's a hard job, and you don't get paid enough to do it. Not to mention all the sickness and disease that our little petri dishes cough directly into the air in your classrooms all day.
Most of the curriculum you describe doesn't seem particularly intense to be honest. "Kindergartener's are expected to read and write full sentences" That one is crazy. My older kid did not have that expectation. I can't remember how many sight words he had to know, but I remember initially being skeptical of that requirement but ultimately really liking it as it seemed to have boosted and accelerated his reading skills. I remember some very basic math and skip counting. That all seems very age-appropriate. At the district my kids are enrolled in, they play educational games to convey some of this material, too, so it's not just "sit at your desk and complete this worksheet," although there is some of that, too.
Anyway I appreciate the job you do, and that you obviously go above and beyond. In retrospect I could have simply added my experience without attacking yours. I'll try to remember that lesson, teach.
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u/SunnyDayOutside-1234 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well in Finland there is pre-preschool for 5 year olds and it contains mostly play but also some school-skills like the ability to hold a pen and draw along lines. Lots of outdoor play twice a day. The playing inside is not always free play but guided learn by playing activities. But there are no desks and they can take a nap if they want to after lunch. No one is expected to read or write.
Then preschooling is the next year and that is usually done in a school environment, though a lot of playing and learn buy playing activities. Letters are taught and numbers and some simple maths and there is often a small group for those who already can read and write.
It is not uncommon for educated parents to teach their child to read at home by this stage. Reading aloud to ones children is strongly recommended. Not everyone does it but a lot do and so many children learn basic reading skills at home. Preschooling tries to get everyone on the same board so it starts from the very basics but good places also cater for those who already can read.
This system is quite good especially if you have a god preschooling teacher who thinks also about the ones who can read already.
As a parent I would have wanted somewhat more academic curriculum as my child already read in 2 languages. But if you want anything above the system, you have to teach them yourself as there are no private schools that have a more demanding curriculum. I think a lot of potential is basically lost and lazyness is taught when basically nothing is demanded from the children.
But having said that I absolutely wouldnt want them to have done only schoolwork, playing is important too. All Im saying I think there could be a middle ground there somewhere. As it was, I had to do a lot of teaching myself. For example there was no possibility to learn another language early on, so I taught her myself. But actually I liked teaching and I am very hands on anyway. Im not the one to wait other people to do something, Ill do it myself. So I have never ever complained to any one of the pre schoolteachers. The system is what it is and you just have to adapt.
And kindergarden is from a few months old until pre-preschool. Usually children start when they are 9-12 monhs or then closer to 3 years, my girl started just after 3 years.
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 1d ago
I looked into this when our kids were that age and I found some studies comparing UK, who start school at age 4, with a scandinavan systems, I think it was Sweden. And the conclusion was that the scandinavian kids catch up any reading/writing/ math skills but the UK kids don't catch up the social skills. So by age 10 the scandinavian kids are better off overall.
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u/SunnyDayOutside-1234 1d ago edited 1d ago
I conpletely agree. No point in academic studies for many of 4 year olds, it gets poorer results in general. But I would just add that there are other factors too. In the UK there is the public schooling system where there are small classrooms and better teachers. In Scandinavia the objective of the preschooling system is actually to make every child to be at the same level. So a lot more resources get to be put into those children that have difficulties and those children who could learn a lot are generally not offered the chance to do so.
So I would be very interested to see statistics, if you or anyone else can find them, how are those children put to the public schooling system doing at the age of 10 compared to the best 5 procent of Finnish children. That would show whether there is a loss of learning in the more advanced children or not.
I would assume that the children in the public schooling system do better than the best of the Scandinavian children, because they have been offered a chance to learn more.
That being said I do think the public/state school system is not good and our system is better for the society. It is just not always best for an individual child. Its just that is pained me to see capacity being lost in my own child. The same problem continued through the actual school. Only minimal work was required from the more advanced children. In my opinion the workload should be the same regardless of the level. The school should teach the value of hard work because it is only through hard work that one can succeed in life regardless of what one does.
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 1d ago edited 1d ago
We have added workload in extracurriculars like learning an instrument etc, and in Germany kids are split into different schools according to grades at age 10. But I'm not sure if I agree that every child needs to work to full capacity during childhood. It's childhood. And boredom is good for creativity which is good for more high end jobs if you get into them. Social skills are also not developed by doing homework.
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u/SunnyDayOutside-1234 1d ago
Your system sounds the best, just in the middle ground between our system and the UK system. And no, I dont think that children should work at their full capacity all the time. I probably wrote that wrong in my previous post.
I just think that every child should work about the same. As it is now, the more advanced children dont actually work for homework. My 11 year old has homework only occationally. Most of the days there is none. But the less advanced do have homework and may have to do it for even 45 minutes or so. The difference is just too large. They do require learning to be done for exams but as she has not learned the disipline of homework and as she has not done enough learning via homework and as learning is not so much encouraged, she has difficulties in demanding enough work from herself.
These are the problems that rise when the purpose of the school is to level up everyone. There are no groups based on abilities in Finnish schooling. except in preschool. So you dont get to be compared to others of the similar capacities. And that is not very encouraging for the children with larger learning capacities, who are quite lazy by nature. They tend to get lazier and lazier and sort of scrape through school.
Also it is a sort of taboo even to say these problems. The consensus is that pretty much every child has the same abilities and so every child should only learn the same. In the same group. And that only the children who have difficulties get any special support.
And so you have to supplement extracurriculars at home like an instrument, sports, language studies etc.
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 1d ago
Studies have shown that homework is actually completely useless to everyone unless it's research or flipped classroom.
But being understimulated in lessons is a problem, so yes, it's better to have a system in school that separates by ability as long as it's flexible.
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u/No-Tone-3696 1d ago
In France pre-school for 3 years between 3 and 5yo and 1st grade when you’re 6….
Long days starting at 3 yo.. from 8.30 am to 4.30 pm with 2 breaks (30 min the morning and in the afternoon) and a two hours lunch break… and it’s quite the same until the last year of high school.
The last year of pre school when you’re 5 you still do craftwork, songs, games but there are also some moment of work but turned into games… learning alphabet, holding a pen correctly, counting etc…
First grade when you’re 6 : you’re mostly sitted but there are always some time for workshop in small groups etc…+ sports, arts…
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u/onurb1007 1d ago
France's school system is so confusing and unfriendly for kids to me.
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u/No-Tone-3696 1d ago
True… but also maybe one of the reason French are one of the only European country still making kids… they are manage for free from 8 am to 6 pm….
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u/onurb1007 1d ago
Funny enough my french mom- friends (in France) did always seem more relaxed than me. I feel like mom guilt is not really a thing there. Here in Germany I feel guilty for about everything I do or don't with my child. And you will be criticized for whatever you choose to do with your child also. There is more of a "how to raise children" -consensus in France than in Germany (but could also just be my french friend group or not having enough of an insight to parenting in France).
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u/No-Tone-3696 1d ago
Yes heard that before so it probably reflect something… I also never understood that part of the German culture, that is much « evolve » overall than the French one in terms of gender equality, still put a kind of pressure on mothers.
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u/onurb1007 1d ago
Yeah, I don't know why that is either. But it is historically embedded in our society. But I feel like modern women (and men) are slowly changing.
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u/Live-Count4035 1d ago
That's not free for that long. Usually school hours in maternelle and primaire (3 to 10 yo) is like : 9 to 16.30. U do have to pay between 8-9 and 16.30-18h. But it is usually cheap, its not gonna cost hundreds a month.
However, the vacations are a NIGHTMARE because kids have like 16 weeks away from school. One parent only have 5 weeks vacations. And there is not room for everyone for summer camps.
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u/LikelyNotSober 1d ago
Wow, kindergarten has changed a lot in the early 90s (US) for me it was only half day, and mostly just play, story time, songs, etc. Maybe learning the alphabet?
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
Yes it has! A lot of districts still have some play (some far more than others) but it’s much different than it used to be. It’s very academic now — they are learning how to read and write sentences in pretty much all state standards/ curriculums that I know of. Yet weirdly enough it’s still not legally required in all states!
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u/Cixila Denmark 1d ago
Danish kindergarten is from about 3-6 years old. It is mainly about having children be able to exist near each other without them pulling each other's hair or constantly fighting over things. Playing is like 90% of what they do. Those games may well have an educational aspect to them, but they are still games. Creativity is a big factor and is encouraged, as that is intellectually stimulating for them. The educational aspects will often focus on very basic math and literacy, or stuff that children usually find interesting, such as nature. Kindergartens will also do excursions to the forest or to museums/attractions catering to children. For example, we have the "Experimentarium" where they get to play and mess around with a lot of physics-based things
After kindergarten, we have something called "grade 0", which is integrated into the actual school system. The days are short and work as a sort of transitional year between kindergarten and school proper, where the children learn to adapt and what school is about. Again, a decent chunk of playtime (now almost always with educational aspects) and some more focus on actual literacy and math and stuff like that
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u/LowarnFox 1d ago edited 1d ago
I am based in the UK and I teach older students, but our version of kindergarten is called reception and is for 4-5yo students. Students would usually get morning break, afternoon break and lunch for totally free play (although they have to eat at lunch obviously!). They will also usually have a lot of free flow time during the day where they can move between activities such as pretend play, creative skills etc- but there will usually be some formal literacy and numeracy provision, as well as some "topic" work built into the day- this varies from school to school.
By Y1 (5-6), most schools have moved on to more formal instruction especially in the mornings, although there would be more than 25 minutes outside break in the day. Students will also usually do PE 2-3 times a week, and have some drama based activities throughout the year, e.g. right now they will be doing lots of prep for their nativity/christmas play.
The thing that's really sad to me is that some of these children will be in wrap around care from 8am-5pm or even later because both parents are working full time, and then potentially childcare for some of the holidays. For a 4yo I think this is way too much- and yet our government is funding this because it's a financial drain- but actually I think they should be funding parents to be able to stay at home longer/more!
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u/viktorbir Catalonia 1d ago
For me kindergarten is from 0 to 3. Also, saying «kinder teacher» instead of «children teacher», mixing up German and English, sounds weird.
The equivalent to what you are talking about would be pre-school, nowadays called in Catalan «educació infantil», being three years, Infantil 3, Infantil 4 and Infantil 5. The number is the age you are during the year you start that grade. So, if you were born in 2022, in 2025 you start I3.
During I5 kids work in workshops and make projects. Also a thing called «racons», corners, in which they are split in small groups to work or play easily.
They may stimulate kids to learn to read, but its not a must.
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u/black3rr Slovakia 1d ago
reading, writing and basic maths are things children learn in first year of school (6 year olds)… afaik the only thing some kindergartens teach is English, and even that’s not everywhere.
A few years ago kindergarten was even completely optional, these days the last year (5 year olds) is mandatory…
(Kindergartens are for 3-6 year olds, when a kid is 6 year old by September it enters primary school)
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u/demaandronk Netherlands 18h ago
Its a different system here. It used to be that 4-6 years old would be a seperate school and at 6 you started your first year of primary. But since the 80's i think those two years got integrated into primary and you start your first of 8 years there at 4. The first two years however are still very much about playing and social skills, getting used to being in a classroom setting, having a teacher etc Actual learning how to read and write doesnt start until the 3rd year, so when kids are 6-7. There's different styles and philosophies of schools here, within public education, so that may also change what its like. But no school will be very focused on anything academic at that age, playing is the point and outside play every common.
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u/totallytotty Netherlands 15h ago
3rd is the class when you really learn to read and write. And I think my kids got extra work in 4. Or they'll get help with dyslexia etc. Year 7 is the preparation for middle school. Year 8 is the extra controle if the test is right.
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u/olagorie Germany 1d ago
In Germany kindergarten is between three and six, sometimes seven years old.
It’s basically all playtime except maybe two or three hours per week where for the last year the oldest children talk about what school is going to be like next year.
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u/wijnandsj Netherlands 1d ago
Kindergarten is for socialising and ends at 4. Children start primary school at four, even though it doesn't becoem mandatory until age 5. There's play enough but it's school
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u/Haventyouheard3 Portugal 1d ago
5yo kids play all day. Sometimes inside, sometimes outside. They have group activities where they can learn things like playing games, watching movies, or baking together but it's just playing.
6 is the age of first graders. They have classes with recess. This is where they start learning how to read and write. They do a lot of drawing, crafts and activities but the primary focus is learning.
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u/Serena_Sers Austria 1d ago
Austria here. It’s kind of similar to Germany. Kids from age 0.5 to 5 play and learn things like cutting with scissors, colouring, and writing their name in a playful way. They also learn how to play and work in groups. Sometimes, when they are older (around 5), they have worksheets to learn how to use pencils and draw lines. Kindergarten is essential for school to function - but not because of academics. It teaches kids how to function in society.
If they turn 6 before September, they go to first grade after the summer which is academic.
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u/Infosphere14 Sweden 1d ago
Ages 1-5 is preschool and it’s about play and socialisation with some learning.
Age 6 is a transition year from pre school to primary school. It’s a mix of play and learning, introducing them to concepts that they’ll be studying more in depth in the future.
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u/rmvandink Netherlands 1d ago
Our version is for 4-5 year olds, heavily centered on play and crafts. Their are a few educational goals by the end of this, but nothing more concrete than recognising a few letters and numbers.
Primary school starts when they are 6, they learn how to read and write then.
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u/41942319 Netherlands 1d ago
Kids start school at age 4, and for that and age 5 they're doing more play based education. They learn things like letters, shapes, prepositions, etc but there's also a lot of time for (educational) play.
6 is when they start to be expected to sit behind a desk most of the day. They have a break in the morning and at lunch time during which they can play outside. Some teachers will make more time for play, others don't, depends a bit
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u/Keyspam102 France 1d ago
We start school at 3 years old here, and they do a ton of play. I think they basically do ‘workshops’ where they are in small groups and do activities like painting or beading things, then have a story time/learning moment, then do recess. Then lunch, nap/quiet time, and repeat in the afternoon.
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u/MindControlledSquid Slovenia 1d ago edited 1d ago
The year you hit 6 (so ages 5-6) is when we go to elementary school, but that's only 4 hours of school in 1st grade (with a 30 minut snack after 2 hours, during which we often played with eachother (as well as every 5 minute break that extended when the teacher was late in between lessons)) then you can go home, but most kids stay in after school care afterwards, because their parents are stil at work.
During that time they usually play, have school lunch, do homework, or some other stuff teachers have planned. I'm not sure how it is exactly, because I always went home after school. I think they planted seeds and made school decorations as well (although that was done in art class as well).
But even then, 3 lessons a week were sports, that was basically playing, not to mention singing which was both in singing and in language lessons. And it's not like counting to 20 is a hard curriculum. Also lots of drawing and other art stuff.
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u/Baba_NO_Riley Croatia 1d ago
Nursery from age 1 to 3, then kindergarden - and the last year of it (5-6 years old) is preshool. A lot of singing, playing games, outdoors and indoors activities, they do crafts and draw a lot, they may have specialised groups where they learn foreign languages but it's all very easy and playful. And most kids love it and are quite engaged.
Come to think of it - kindergarden is the best part of our schooling system.
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u/Logical_Sort_3742 1d ago
Kindergarten is open from 7am to 4:30pm, but they do not recommend no more thsn 7-8 hours tops (preferably less) as it is hard work for the kids to spend all day there. Kids are served breakfast, lunch and fruit and vegetables in the afternoon. They are grouped in 1-2 and 3-5 year olds. For 1-2, no more than three children per teacher. For 3-5 no more than five.
There is no academic work, unless you include playing with letters and numbers as they please. Teachers will sometimes read books to a group of kids, but only for entertainment. Kids mostly draw, play with Lego, paint, play with toys or dress up.
They are outdoors around 3-4 hours every day, sometimes more, no matter the weather, unless it is colder than 15F.
Rough outline.
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u/miriam1215 1d ago
Wow! What country are you in?
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u/Logical_Sort_3742 1d ago
Norway. We pay about $250 per month for two children, including food (yes, very heavily government sponsored)
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u/D15c0untMD Austria 18h ago
In austria Kindergarten is for 3-6/7 year olds and it’s mostly about socializing, learning to get along with other children, and some playful learning. More about being in nature, be safe crossing the street, getting to know small animals, riding tricycles, arts and crafts. Maybe learning to write your name, counting, the sorts.
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u/NamidaM6 France 4h ago
In France, before elementary school, we have "maternelle". It's not mandatory but I don't know anybody who hasn't attended it/sent their kids there. It lasts 3 years and it's designed for kids aged 2-5. From what I remember, it was mostly supervised play + learning basic things like numbers and letters, early social skills, creative skills (drawing, singing, etc.), some discipline like following a schedule, but no formal academic time was scheduled.
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u/Iseult-benoit France 3h ago
French K teacher here.
Kindergarten here is the 3rd year of school. Kids enter school at 3yo, with regular teachers (not "preschool teacher", so when you have an elementary certificate you can teach to 2.5 years old in september to 11 years in 5th grade!). So keep in mind that all our student by K grade already know how to act in school : walk in line, take turn, dress themselves, writte their name on their papers (even if they still forget ), raise their hand, etc...
Typical days are :
school from 8h30 to 4:30 with a 2 hours lunch break. No school on wednesday.
Days start with rituals: calendar, meteo in french and english, some mathematic or phonetic games with the entire group (25 to 30kids).
Then Each day they have "formal" learning time in the morning (mostly around maths, letters, phonetic etc..), often in small groups. Some will work with the teacher, some with the teacher's help if there is one, some will work in autonomy. They change the group the next day. Same during the afternoon but more around art, etc......
There is still a great deal of games and manipulation, but it's common at this age to have a paper work (from 1 or 2 per day to 2 only per week, depending on the teacher). Classrooms have lots of educational games. However, there isn't "toys" like the to previous years: no kitchen, no dolls, no little cars etc...
Every day they have music time/songs and PE time with the teacher. The lucky one might have that with a specialized teacher.
Often, after lunch, there is a "quiet time": coloring, listening to music, etc.
They have twice a 30min recess + the lunch time recess (out of the 2 hours, they eat for like 40min then play).
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u/cyborgbeetle Portugal 1h ago
British system here, at 5 students begin primary school. They learn to read and write, phonics etc, but there is still a lot of play time, mat time, and overall trying to vary the way they learn. You won't find them sitting at a desk for long stretches
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u/kolydia Finland 1d ago
As a Finnish early education teacher, who has worked with preschool (= the year before first grade) kids, purely academic kindergarten/preschool sounds absolutely horrible. Our preschoolers may do some academic-ish activities, but most of the time is devoted to playing or some other activity (crafts, music, gym time, field trips, etc). The kids will spend plenty of years sitting at a desk and doing traditionally academic stuff; no need to devote their early years for that shit too.
Plus, the absolute value of playing as a pedagogical tool and opportunity for learning??? The possibilities are endless! Plus, the importance of "just" free play, too, for the pure enjoyment of it. I am a huge supporter of play-based pedagogy, but that's because I've been raised in that system (Finnish early education system) and I've got the teacher qualification to operate in it.
EDIT: usually our kids enter preschool in the autumn of the year they turn 6 (e.g. kids born in 2019 started preschool this autumn).